Police Chief places Nazi insignia on his office door

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ex-khobar Andy
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Police Chief places Nazi insignia on his office door

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

. . . and negotiates a $1.5 million payoff to resign.

Apparently
The City of Kent [Washington] said that under federal and state law, it had been unable to terminate Chief Kammerzell after his suspension because of “double jeopardy principles,” a clause in the Fifth Amendment that prohibits prosecuting people twice for substantially the same crime. Had he been terminated initially, the city added, it was “confident he would have been returned to work by an independent arbitrator.”


How is this a double jeopardy case?

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Long Run
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Re: Police Chief places Nazi insignia on his office door

Post by Long Run »

The Seattle Times reported:
Had the city simply fired Kammerzell, officials said, he likely would have won his job back — with back pay — through arbitration under federal and state labor laws.
. They also stated that even if they had originally fired him, instead of the 2 week suspension, that he most likely would have won an arbitration to get his job back. They were in a lose-lose situation: pay a sizable sum to a scum ball; or fire him, lose the arbitration, and have a leading officer that can't lead the department and the public reviles.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... -insignia/

It appears The NY Times is the only one suggesting this was an issue of double jeopardy.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Police Chief places Nazi insignia on his office door

Post by BoSoxGal »

Good riddance. Sucks he gets to go out on a grift, but worth the price to the city to delegitimize a Nazi. Too bad the settlement doesn’t include him surrendering his law enforcement credentials nationwide, because I’m sure he’ll just go on to be the German general at some smaller town department where he will act the jack booted thug that he no doubt is.

We really need to start weeding out the Nazis from our police and military forces.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Police Chief places Nazi insignia on his office door

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Long Run wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:15 pm
It appears The NY Times is the only one suggesting this was an issue of double jeopardy.
It appears not :lol: :lol:

From your own link, the Seattle Times reported:
Kammerzell has been on paid leave since January while the city and his attorneys tried to reach an agreement that would result in his departure and that would not put the city in the position of having to rehire him over the double jeopardy and due process issues a termination would have raised. [/url]
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Police Chief places Nazi insignia on his office door

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

It's double jeopardy because his initial punishment was a two week suspension and sensitivity training. It was only after the local Jewish Community Relations Council objected that the city sought his resignation - a straight termination at that point would indeed have been double jeopardy. So some idiot in HR or legal dropped the ball and cost the city $1.5 mill whereby they should have just fired the jerk in the first place.

Big RR
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Re: Police Chief places Nazi insignia on his office door

Post by Big RR »

I'm not fully aware of all of the intricacies of employment law, but I fail to see how double jeopardy applies here. Double jeopardy applies to the government trying and/or punishing you more than once for the same criminal offense; here the employer is the municipal or state government, so the government part is settled, but I do not think any employer (perhaps a government one, but I don't think so) is constrained by consitutitonal law from punishing someone more than once, nor do I think any employee has a property right in his/her job that would raise due process concerns. More likely, it is a consequence of an employment contract and what sort of discipline can be meted out by an employer; ordinarily in US we are in a position where an employer has the right to terminate an employee at any time for almost any reason (other than a breach of civil rights law), but I wouldn't be surprised if a civil service employer is contractually constrained from disciplining an employee without some sort of contractual guarantees, like in this instance.

Perhaps someone here has a better understanding of employment law and can comment, but I just don't see any due process/double jeopardy problems here.

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Long Run
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Re: Police Chief places Nazi insignia on his office door

Post by Long Run »

But the articles also make clear the city's legal advisors believed that a termination even at the initial stage would have been reversed at arbitration. In fact, the two-week suspension was what an arbitrator ruled after the initial hearing on appropriate discipline. https://www.kentreporter.com/news/kent- ... -insignia/

As to the "double jeopardy" question raised in the first post, the concern is described as double jeopardy "principles" or "rules" which makes it likely that the limitation is based in civil service laws or a bargaining agreement or other non-constitutional right. The NY Times article appears to reference the 5th Amendment to explain what double jeopardy is as opposed to saying the 5th Amendment applied here, though it was easy to read it otherwise as there was no need to reference the 5th Amendment.

And Meade, I am going to blame late-loading ads that jump article text lower or higher and make it hard to keep your place. Yet another annoyance of the internet.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Police Chief places Nazi insignia on his office door

Post by BoSoxGal »

Double jeopardy isn’t used here in the sense that it applies in criminal cases.

This incident evinces how incredibly difficult it can be to get rid of bad public servants, police in particular. Thanks to decades of efforts by PBAs/unions to insulate crap cops from what should be the consequences of their actions.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

liberty
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Re: Police Chief places Nazi insignia on his office door

Post by liberty »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:21 pm
Good riddance. Sucks he gets to go out on a grift, but worth the price to the city to delegitimize a Nazi. Too bad the settlement doesn’t include him surrendering his law enforcement credentials nationwide, because I’m sure he’ll just go on to be the German general at some smaller town department where he will act the jack booted thug that he no doubt is.

We really need to start weeding out the Nazis from our police and military forces.
After you have purged the United States military of all conservatives, Republicans, rednecks, southerners, and blue-eyed blonde-haired white boys who will fight Putin for you? Don't say liberals; we have been down that Vietnam road before. A sure way to turn a war illegal is to draft liberals.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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Re: Police Chief places Nazi insignia on his office door

Post by Econoline »

WW2 was won by draftees of all political stripes (including liberals, socialists, and communists), under the leadership of the most liberal POTUS ever. We will all stand and fight when it's necessary, and when it's not we will fight and defeat the political powers that want to waste human lives for their own political advantage and personal aggrandizement. Stop believing everything Fox News tells you about "liberals".
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

Big RR
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Re: Police Chief places Nazi insignia on his office door

Post by Big RR »

A sure way to turn a war illegal is to draft liberals.
Or to start a bullshit war in the first place and not even try to tell the people why it is good idea. Domino Theory? Containment of communism? Nah, that's complete bullshits just a bunch of arm chair chickenhawk "soldiers" trying to play risk with real human lives (of other people--they never went; they got deferments or national guard posts--or claimed bone spurs; anything works when you have enough money and influence) , and then use some patriotic bullshit line as saying anyone who disagrees is a liberal/communist/coward/unamercian... Thanks for perpetuating that bullshit and showing all thinking people how ridiculous it is.

And while you're at it, go and fight with your idol--Putin. After all, he does everything the way you'd prefer. A few people like you in his army and he's doomed to lose.

liberty
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Re: Police Chief places Nazi insignia on his office door

Post by liberty »

Big RR wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:07 pm
A sure way to turn a war illegal is to draft liberals.
Or to start a bullshit war in the first place and not even try to tell the people why it is good idea. Domino Theory? Containment of communism? Nah, that's complete bullshits just a bunch of arm chair chickenhawk "soldiers" trying to play risk with real human lives (of other people--they never went; they got deferments or national guard posts--or claimed bone spurs; anything works when you have enough money and influence) , and then use some patriotic bullshit line as saying anyone who disagrees is a liberal/communist/coward/unamercian... Thanks for perpetuating that bullshit and showing all thinking people how ridiculous it is.

And while you're at it, go and fight with your idol--Putin. After all, he does everything the way you'd prefer. A few people like you in his army and he's doomed to lose.
When have I written anything that implied that I saw tyranny in a favorable light? I never have it would be more likely for the left to do that; after all, I remember leftists praising Fidel Castro, Daniel Ortega, Stalin, Pol Pot, and the Chinese communist leader Mao TSE Tung. So I ask you this question: Why do the words liberty and freedom appear to be dirty words in the leftist lexicon?
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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Joe Guy
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Re: Police Chief places Nazi insignia on his office door

Post by Joe Guy »

liberty wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:47 am
When have I written anything that implied that I saw tyranny in a favorable light?
You seem to have a lot of respect for tyrannical leaders and would-be tyrants, like that one-trick pony MAGA man.

liberty
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Re: Police Chief places Nazi insignia on his office door

Post by liberty »

Joe Guy wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:15 am
liberty wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:47 am
When have I written anything that implied that I saw tyranny in a favorable light?
You seem to have a lot of respect for tyrannical leaders and would-be tyrants, like that one-trick pony MAGA man.
Why is it that you have respect for politicians? I generally don’t; there have been only two for which I’ve had positive feelings. One was Ronald Reagan for his courageous opposition to communism, and the other was Ralph Abraham because I knew him personally. I generally see them as just units of production, and I care nothing about their personal lives or even their opinions and beliefs as long as they do what I want them to do.

Why was trump a tyrant? Has he taken any of your or my rights? Or has he seized any of our property? I wouldn’t choose trump as president or any political office if I had a choice. He’s not a very good politician, but he did try to do those things he said he would do for the most part. That’s better than most politicians do. They usually lie during campaign season, and once they’re in the office, they do what they want.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Police Chief places Nazi insignia on his office door

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

liberty wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:13 am
That’s better than most politicians do. They usually lie during campaign season, and once they’re in the office, they do what they want.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Your hero DJT lied before the campaign, during the campaign, even more during his presidumbcy, and even more than that after he was tossed out while trying (as he still is) to subvert America and democracy.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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