Happy Juneteenth

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TPFKA@W
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Happy Juneteenth

Post by TPFKA@W »

I didn't grow up knowing and celebrating Juneteenth. It wasn't until a few years ago that I learned the date's significance. Even though this day hasn't been a part of my entire life, I sincerely appreciate what Juneteenth means to many of my friends and our country.

Also known as Emancipation Day or Jubilee Day, this date celebrates the end of slavery in the United States. Even though the Emancipation Proclamation happened in 1862, it wasn't until June 19th, 1865, that Texas enslaved people were declared free. This day is a constant reminder to me - we were not indeed a free country until all of us had freedom!

Burning Petard
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by Burning Petard »

"until all of us had freedom!" Change that to the present tense. Chattel slavery still exists in practice but not in name in many jail systems in the American South. Ask the descendants of the Black Americans living in Tulsa Oklahoma a hundred years ago. Ask the asians living in Detroit Michigan how two white men could kill a man with a baseball bat and the killers are fined $3000 and no time in jail seventy years ago. Ask the people standing around without interfering while representatives of the State killed George Martin.

When will all of us have freedom? Yes, Please celebrate Juneteenth as a sign post on a long journey.

snailgate

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

No, they were "free" as of January 1 1863. All slaves then held in states in rebellion were declared forever free. They just had not heard the news until meeting up with a bunch of Federal soldiers policing the now "pacified" (ha ha) Galveston, Texas. So it's kind of celebrating the last people to find out. (And a study of post-war Texas and indeed the USA suggests that this "freedom" was illusory for many many hundreds of thousands).

Of course, they wouldn't have been the last people to find out either. Doubtless there were many blacks who didn't happen to live in Galveston who did not learn of it until June 20th, 21, 22, 23 and so on. But history is ugly and it's good to acknowledge that the Federal Government finally reached the final hurdle.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by BoSoxGal »

Slavery didn’t end until the passage of the 13th Amendment in December 1865. And of course slavery didn’t end then, either - we just converted to slavery by incarceration.

Juneteenth is a nice way to celebrate the idea of universal freedom, and to remind us to keep striving toward it.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Big RR
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by Big RR »

Exactly, the Emancipation Proclamation was a document purporting to free the slaves in territories Lincoln held no power over, while retaining slavery in territories (actually states) in which he did hold power (of course it is arguable whether he could have ended slavery in any states without a Constitutional amendment).
Last edited by Big RR on Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sue U
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by Sue U »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:38 pm
Juneteenth is a nice way to celebrate the idea of universal freedom, and to remind us to keep striving toward it.
Exactly.

Growing up I knew about Juneteenth, but understood it to be a regional (and specifically Texas) thing. I am glad its significance in the broader American consciousness is being elevated.
GAH!

Big RR
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by Big RR »

I agree!

Jarlaxle
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by Jarlaxle »

Just another government worker holiday.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

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Jarlaxle wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:48 pm
Just another government worker holiday.
I’ve worked for several private industry entities that recognized federal holidays and gave their workers the day off. Chief among the private industry entities that recognize all federal holidays are banks.

If you don’t get paid federal holidays off, blame greedy business owners. There really is no other reason to refuse to give workers paid holidays, paid sick time, paid parental leave etc. It all comes down to greed and lack of concern for the labor that creates all wealth.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

Big RR
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by Big RR »

As I recall, the reason we have federal holidays is to state which otherwise working days federal banks can be closed, and providing notice to the public of these days. Indeed, when I was young I recall them being called bank holidays (probably a throwback to the depression when banks closed on non holidays). Sure, some government services were suspended and some government workers got these same holidays off, but that was not the primary intent.

By the way, I agree it's not as important now as the computer systems and ATMs still operate, but they were serious concerns when they were done in the late 19th century.

Jarlaxle
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by Jarlaxle »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:56 pm
Jarlaxle wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:48 pm
Just another government worker holiday.
I’ve worked for several private industry entities that recognized federal holidays and gave their workers the day off. Chief among the private industry entities that recognize all federal holidays are banks.

If you don’t get paid federal holidays off, blame greedy business owners. There really is no other reason to refuse to give workers paid holidays, paid sick time, paid parental leave etc. It all comes down to greed and lack of concern for the labor that creates all wealth.
Aren't banks required to be closed in those cases?

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Banks are not required to close on the holidays designated by the U.S. Federal Reserve System, but they usually do.
It all comes down to greed and lack of concern for the labor that creates all wealth.

Ya good Marxist you! :lol:

I've watched people digging dirt and moving it from place to place. Never seen them make a penny for doing it. Their dirt; their hobby.

Now if I call 'em over and ask them to move my dirt and pay 'em fifty bucks - what earned them the money? The digging or the digging it for me
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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datsunaholic
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by datsunaholic »

I remember what having holidays off was like. I think 2014 was the last time I worked a job that closed on holidays. Of course that job also had mandatory unpaid weekend overtime on occasion.

I will work every single holiday this year except New Years Day. My company has "paid holidays" but you can't take them off, you just get paid Holiday pay plus whatever hours you actually work. The only way to get a holiday off is to either not be scheduled that day (NYD fell on Saturday, the only holiday this year that landed on one of my days off) or take vacation. So is life in the service sector.
Death is Nature's way of telling you to slow down.

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Sue U
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by Sue U »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:09 pm
I've watched people digging dirt and moving it from place to place. Never seen them make a penny for doing it. Their dirt; their hobby.

Now if I call 'em over and ask them to move my dirt and pay 'em fifty bucks - what earned them the money? The digging or the digging it for me
Er .... yes, and?
GAH!

Burning Petard
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by Burning Petard »

Ah Major, the endless question, what is the value of capital without a place to invest it? Which is more important--the capital or the place to put it?

By way, Delaware is one of those places where the Emancipation Proclamation did not apply. I have never heard anybody talk about it so I don't know just when slavery ended here, but the State still had a whipping post when I moved here in 1972.

snailgate

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Scooter
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by Scooter »

Most of Delaware's slaves had escaped during the war. There were less than 1000 left to be freed by the ratification of the 13th Amendment.
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Big RR
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by Big RR »

But if I am not mistaken, there were only about 2000 slaves in Delaware before the Civil War, so this was about half of the ones held.

Jarlaxle
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by Jarlaxle »

datsunaholic wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:53 am
I remember what having holidays off was like. I think 2014 was the last time I worked a job that closed on holidays. Of course that job also had mandatory unpaid weekend overtime on occasion.

I will work every single holiday this year except New Years Day. My company has "paid holidays" but you can't take them off, you just get paid Holiday pay plus whatever hours you actually work. The only way to get a holiday off is to either not be scheduled that day (NYD fell on Saturday, the only holiday this year that landed on one of my days off) or take vacation. So is life in the service sector.
I miss working holidays. In fact, the single thing I miss most about driving wreckers is working Christmas.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Sue U wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:16 pm
MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:09 pm
I've watched people digging dirt and moving it from place to place. Never seen them make a penny for doing it. Their dirt; their hobby.

Now if I call 'em over and ask them to move my dirt and pay 'em fifty bucks - what earned them the money? The digging or the digging it for me
Er .... yes, and?
So, "the labor that creates all wealth" is false. Value requires two elements - the labor and the investor/employer/perceived market willing to buy. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis. Labor alone creates nothing (except a hole and a pile of dirt)*. Labor cannot be divorced from the entity that rewards it. I suppose we can debate intrinsic value, use value and all sorts of value. The fact remains that the interests of capital and labor should be identical (self enrichment) through cooperation. That each regards the other as a competitor is a disappointing but predictable failure (given the self part of "self-enrichment". But labor creates no value, as if value resided in the thing itself instead of the utility/desire for the thing.

*granted, this is often displayed as "art" and gullible entities such as museums and pseuds value it enough to expend stupid amounts of money acquiring it. Not sure of what Engels thought of that.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

Big RR
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Re: Happy Juneteenth

Post by Big RR »

Come on Meade, even unpaid labor, whether freely given or coerced can create things of value. I could force you to perform some labor for me to move dirt on my land, and I will be the recipient of the value added to my land by your labor, even though there is no reward to you for the labor. Slavery is a good example of that; the labor of the slaves created the value in the crops they planted, tended, and harvested for no reward. At least no reward unless you accept the fact that I, or the plantation owner, has the power of life and death over you or the slave.

The value that the capitalist of slaveholder places on the labor is immaterial; the labor has n intrinsic value in what it creates which is separate divorce from the value that the person requesting it will pay for. For example, what is the value of a drug that will save your life; there is a bargained for value paid to the drug seller, but this in no way is the value the drug possesses--as the value of your life (and saving it) is much greater than the money paid.

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