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Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:40 pm
by liberty
Some of you have come to the wrong conclusions from Putin's failures in Ukraine. You think that Russia is a paper tiger, but you're mistaken. They have made mistakes; as I see it he has made at least two, I'm sure of, and one, I suspect. First, he didn't have the Russian people behind him before he invaded Ukraine. Secondly, he wasted too much of his military resources on civilian targets to intimidate the Ukrainian people, and I suspect he involved himself too much in the day-to-day activities of the Russian military. However, I believe this war could make them more dangerous in the future than they are now.
The Ukrainian people's sacrifices are things we cannot do. We do not have their grit. Putin would have been better off and had a much greater chance of success if he had attacked The United States in Alaska. By now, he could have weakened the United States military enough to win through negotiations or at least secure a significant portion of the Alaskan territory. And don't tell me that American liberals would rush out and join the military. That is a load of crap, and you know it. Remember Vietnam. As I said before, we don't have grit; just look at S.H. if it is reproduced, do you think the result will be worth a damn. And I suspect the same is true of most of the American population. The Ukrainian sacrifice has bought us some time, but it's only time. The Russians will be back, and I suspect they'll be even more formidable in the future.
I think the Russians have a modern scientific-minded military like the United States; after this war, they will do an after-action study and produce an after-action report with the intended purpose of not repeating past mistakes. So, they will learn from this war and be much more dangerous in the future.
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:24 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:40 pm
by Joe Guy
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:58 pm
by BoSoxGal
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:25 am
by Sue U
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:44 pm
by liberty
America love it or leave it; what a bunch of super-patriots. Do you remember how you despised people you once referred to as super-patriots? Do you hate yourself now? Where was your patriotism when it mattered? I remember the Boland Amendment, the communist protection act that you supported. You can't stand to hear the truth about the US. The United States is a wealthy country but no longer a great nation; to be a great country, one must have great people, and that is no longer the case.
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:23 pm
by BoSoxGal
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:39 pm
by BoSoxGal
liberty wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:40 pm
I think the Russians have a modern scientific-minded military like the United States; after this war, they will do an after-action study and produce an after-action report with the intended purpose of not repeating past mistakes. So, they will learn from this war and be much more dangerous in the future.
I mean, c’mon! You have got to be kidding, right? Are you watching exclusively the Russian propaganda coverage of Putin’s special action in Ukraine?
The reason Ukraine is kicking Russia’s ass is that Russia’s military is corrupt to the core, their stockpiles of equipment have turned out to be crappy thanks to corruption and mismanagement of troops/troop discipline with regard to training and maintenance etc. and the top down strict command structure is incompatible with modern warfare. Ukraine is utilizing the skills they’ve been taught by AMERICAN AND NATO MILITARY ADVISORS for the last several years and those advisors have the experience of 20 years of Middle East wars to draw from in advising Ukrainian troops. The Ukrainian troops and civilians recently recruited also have the incalculable advantage of being THE GOOD GUYS in the MORAL RIGHT, with literally centuries of experience suffering under the yoke of Russian oppression and a total unwillingness to ever be there again. They would rather die than submit, whilst the Russian troops don’t even want to be there and have no idea why they are there and most of them despise being put in the position of killing their ethnic and actual cousins so they have zero morale and know very well they are being sacrificed as fodder to one insane man’s relentless ambition.
Yeah Americans are more obese than Russians by about 10%, but Russians are more alcoholic than Americans by about the same ratio. It’s a lot easier to get off the sofa and start working off the weight than it is to break a lifelong addiction to potato swill. I’ll take our chances if the Russians come for US.
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:44 pm
by Big RR
Remember Vietnam.
Sure, I remember. But I recall no invasion of the USA or even any credible threat to us. And the government of the side we were on being just as brutal and dictatorial as the other side. So you really blame people for saying Hell no, we won't go? Being patriotic does not mean you have to surrender your brains.
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:00 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:34 am
by BoSoxGal
What film/show is that from?
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:18 am
by Bicycle Bill
BoSoxGal wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:34 am
What film/show is that from?
I've apparently hurt her feelings by poking fun at her a couple times in the past — yeah, I have, but haven't we all taken the occasional pot-shot at each other over the years? — so BSG claims to have me blocked so my posts don't even display
(ostrich mode, in other words — bury your head in the sand and as long as you don't see something, it isn't there and doesn't exist), which means she probably won't see my reply.
Maybe one of you can copy and repost this to tell her it's from the 2000 movie "The Patriot", starring Mel Gibson, Chris Cooper, Heath Ledger, and Jason Isaacs.
-"BB"-
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:31 am
by Econoline
BoSoxGal wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:34 am
What film/show is that from?
Bicycle Bill wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:18 am
BoSoxGal wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:34 am
What film/show is that from?
I've apparently hurt her feelings by poking fun at her a couple times in the past — yeah, I have, but haven't we all taken the occasional pot-shot at each other over the years? — so BSG claims to have me blocked so my posts don't even display
(ostrich mode, in other words — bury your head in the sand and as long as you don't see something, it isn't there and doesn't exist), which means she probably won't see my reply.
Maybe one of you can copy and repost this to tell her it's from the 2000 movie "The Patriot", starring Mel Gibson, Chris Cooper, Heath Ledger, and Jason Isaacs.
-"BB"-
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:44 am
by Econoline
liberty wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:40 pm
Putin would have been better off and had a much greater chance of success if he had attacked The United States in Alaska. By now, he could have weakened the United States military enough to win through negotiations or at least secure a significant portion of the Alaskan territory. And don't tell me that American liberals would rush out and join the military. That is a load of crap, and you know it. Remember Vietnam.
Remember Pearl Harbor.
(And of course that was under a POTUS who conservatives still consider the epitome of a "liberal" politician.)
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:24 am
by MajGenl.Meade
Remember Pearl Bailey! Her bridges were important on D-Day.
Yes, that is from the abysmal "The Patriot"
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:54 am
by liberty
BoSoxGal wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:39 pm
liberty wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:40 pm
Yeah Americans are more obese than Russians by about 10%, but Russians are more alcoholic than Americans by about the same ratio. It’s a lot easier to get off the sofa and start working off the weight than it is to break a lifelong addiction to potato swill. I’ll take our chances if the Russians come for US.
You're correct that drug addiction is worse than spending time on the couch. And that it's easier to get off the sofa than give up an addiction to alcohol or anything else. However, I think Americans will not get off the couch and submit to conscription for the most part. You know my concern over the state of American culture. Most people now are more like Bill Clinton than Teddy Roosevelt. I'm sure Roosevelt did have fear because all sane individuals do, but he didn't show it and tried not to let it control him. However, Bill Clinton said he did not honor his pledge to enlist because he feared for his safety. I think that is true of most modern-day Americans. Their well-being is the most important thing. War will always be illegal if it means they have to take a risk.
You can flatter yourself by believing we're the same as Ukrainians but we are not. But console yourself with the fact that history teaches that nothing lasts forever. And nothing will last forever, including our country or even democracy, for that matter. Democracy has always been a minority form of government. And generally, freedom didn't survive the tribal stage and only applied to warriors. We could change our culture others have done it, the Japanese did it in a little more than two generations, but we won't. Americans are not proactive we're just not willing to pay for something that may not happen.
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:43 am
by Joe Guy
If we were to fight against Russia (which is struggling much more than expected against Ukraine) our fight probably wouldn't involve a lot of hand to hand combat on the ground. Overweight people from the U.S. could direct drones and fly fighter jets at least as well as a drunk Russian in a weakened economy.
What the Putin Government would hopefully learn from its recent battle with Ukraine is that it does no good to destroy the infrastructure of a country and kill its people when your goal is to annex that country. Also, it's likely that the majority of the Russian people are not very happy with their current war. A smart Russian leader might actually realize that a war with any country isn't a good investment.
Just a thought....
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:51 pm
by Big RR
You can flatter yourself by believing we're the same as Ukrainians but we are not.
and you can continue to make the silly comparison of failure to agree to fight to support a brutal regime in Vietnam (in which we had absolutely no real interest), reveals how we would react when our land/interest/way of life is threatened. Fighting to support the mental masturbation fantasies of chicken hawks in 4 administrations going back to Eisenhower is pretty ridiculous (as is fighting for the wrong, or at least equally bad, regine), and I can't blame those who said Hell no. Indeed, I think the same thing would happen should Americans be told we should fight to support any of our dictatorial regimes we currently support--and IMHO, they are right. But if we are actually (not theoretically) threatened or attacked, we we really have no choice, and I doubt most Americans would ignore it.
Re: Lessons from Ukraine
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:26 pm
by Burning Petard
Remember the history of many major powers. Russian is not a stone age culture. It is handicapped by a many century tradition of crippling bureaucracy (and so is China) They are exhausting current military inventories. To me that means they will scrap the old sources and manufacturing processes as worn out anyway, and build all new stuff, making all new weapon systems to overcome the failures of this war. Meantime, the USA continues to invest in equipment designed to defeat the Russia of Stalin and the China of the Korean war.
Nothing is bigger sitting duck than a modern US Navy aircraft carrier with all its support ships. North Korea certainly is building for this.
"Patriiotism is the last refuge of scoundrels."
snailgate
