Israel at War

[rubato]

Mind you hamas Broke the peace and deserves a good solid thrashing.

[Big RR]

t seems like the Jews are expected to take the massacres and kidnappings on the chin and to behave better than any other nation would.

If thousands of armed Mexicans crossed into southern USA and raped and pillaged and burned out entire communities of American citizens, we would flatten a whole bunch of stuff in Mexico with barely a moment to plan it. Even after everything we have learned from Korea to Vietnam through the fall of Afghanistan to Taliban 2.0.


And it would show we hadn't actually learned a thing from all those conflicts.

Indeed. And, FWIW, Hams is not a foreign power like Mexico (who I presume would be behind your "invasion" scenario), they are a criminal organization (or at least have proven themselves to be); it would be more like a drug cartel attacked the border and then we shelled civilian houses in the area they came from. While some might cheer, I doubt many would.

know we could go in circles about all of this, but I maintain that Israel has the right as any nation would to go hunting for the monsters who carried out these atrocities and if I’m being totally honest I’m not longing for trials for Hamas operatives and leadership. Feed them to the cockroaches.

I don't disagree. But hunting for monsters shouldn't include genociding the population in which they're hiding.

[BoSoxGal]

Can either of you present a plan with military tactical considerations that would be acceptable to you?

Israel CANNOT not retaliate - they might as well sign their own death warrants if they don't show force and resolve. I agree with all the humanitarian considerations and I believe that with the whole world watching - and judging already - they will do their best to avoid civilian casualties, but how can they not accidentally kill civilians when Hamas is telling them to stay because Hamas WANTS THEM TO KILL PALESTINIANS. Hamas cares more about the optics and using the collateral damage casualties to drive recruitment and fundraising and shape the view from the Arab street.

But Israel can't just sit down and do nothing. And given the capacity we now know Hamas has acquired while pretending at negotiation these last many years, don't they have to level some shit to root out the terrorist rot?

Didn't innocent people die when we crushed ISIS?

[liberty]

BSG--while I agree Israel should (and perhaps even must) respond, I do have a serious concern with the tactics. Bombarding Gaza while cutting off humanitarian aid seems a lot like terrorism to me--make it hard on the civilians so they will give up any leaning toward the enemy. Civilians, including children, are being killed and maimed by the scores, and the chances for any medical relief are grossly reduced when power, fuel, food, medicines, etc. are cut off in a stranglehold. Yes it is a battle, but certainly Israel can do better; sure it's tough to deal with terrorist groups, but you don't "win" y adapting their tactics. Sure, Egypt could help by permitting refugee centers, but Israel could try to select its targets for the deterrence values, not to spread dread among the populace, and by admitting humanitarian aid to Gaza. It's hard to be the bigger man in a fight, but being the bigger man creates a responsibility to fight more fairly. And, IMHO, we have a right to demand that of anyone who wants our support.

If Israel is ever to have peace, they have to eliminate Hamas; to do that, they must invade Gaza and destroy parts of Gaza. Those high-rise buildings are the high ground that Hamas will use to kill troops with snipers and tanks for anti-tank weapons as well as kill Israeli drones. Every building that is destroyed now saves Israeli soldier’s lives in the future. Once the buildings are down, the IDF can use drones to detect enemy activity and take them out with artillery and gunships rather than sacrificing their troops. I think it’s reasonable that the IDF does not have to wait until their soldiers are killed before they knock down those buildings, so destroying the buildings is a justifiable act of war.

The situation of the people of Gaza is the same as it was for the people of Nazi Germany. Hamas is the government of Gaza, and the people of Gaza are just as responsible for the actions of their government as the people of Nazi Germany were for theirs. Unfortunately, so much suffering has to happen but there is no other way anything else will just prolong suffering for generations.

[Econoline]

Creating more angry Palestinians is absolutely counter-productive for Israel.

^^^^THIS.^^^^

[Joe Guy]

My solution is for the US to invade Baja California, take it over, give it to Israel and make it our 51st state. The state of Israel would settle there, set up a new Jerusalem and other new holy places and be charged with control of the southern US border keeping drugs and illegals out with a new improved iron dome. The Palestinians, Hamas and Hezbollah could all get together and work out their problems back in the Middle East without any interference from us or Israel.

[Sue U]

My solution is for the US to invade Baja California, take it over, give it to Israel and make it our 51st state. The state of Israel would settle there, set up a new Jerusalem and other new holy places and be charged with control of the southern US border keeping drugs and illegals out with a new improved iron dome. The Palestinians, Hamas and Hezbollah could all get together and work out their problems back in the Middle East without any interference from us or Israel.

You're not the first to suggest something similar; see Birobidzhan and British Uganda Program.

The situation of the people of Gaza is the same as it was for the people of Nazi Germany. Hamas is the government of Gaza, and the people of Gaza are just as responsible for the actions of their government as the people of Nazi Germany were for theirs. Unfortunately, so much suffering has to happen but there is no other way anything else will just prolong suffering for generations.

The situation is not even remotely the same and Hamas is the "government" of Gaza only in the way warlords and their gangs are the "government" of the territory they occupy. And just who do you think has been propping up Hamas over the last 16 years? It's Netanyahu himself, who has been using them to divide Palestinians, keep the PA and more legitimate political parties weak, and sabotage any prospects for a genuine Palestinian state. Netanyahu's gamesmanship has now come around to bite him in the ass, and the ignorant of the world cheer him on in punishing the people of Gaza for it.

[Jarlaxle]

We have had peace with Germany and japan because we sacrificed to rebuild both of them. An act unique in history. Normally a victorious army loots everything, rapes and kidnaps the women. Israel needs to forgive and provide humanitarian aid the Palestinians. As should we. We should pour out rivers of resources. Otherwise Gaza will be a fertile vineyard for creating masses of hate filled terrorists for generations to come. And they will have good reasons

This cannot be a serious post. It's not possible.

[BoSoxGal]

Just to clarify, I'm not cheering Netanyahu on in punishing the people of Gaza and I don't think I'm ignorant.

I'm supporting the Israeli people in going after barbaric Hamas terrorists, and I'm apparently in fairly good company along with my country's president and secretary of state among dozens of other notable leaders American and otherwise including present and former ambassadors, other world leaders etc. who support them in conducting some form of retaliation and destruction of Hamas capacity for inflicting terror.

It is frustrating that reasonable people who support a strong response are getting lumped in with Netanyahu's Likud party, especially considering that millions of Israelis don't support Netanyahu or the Likud positions and Israel has been as divided as America in recent times and yet many of the Israelis who don't like or support Netanyahu are thanking Americans for their support of Israel following this terrorist attack and I guess I'm missing the coverage of all the Israelis begging their government and the IDF to do nothing.

I have a growing suspicion that when the dust settles it may come to light that Netanyahu and his cronies were even more complicit in the horror attacks of last Saturday than just propping up Hamas to keep the Palestinians divided; it's quite obvious that there was a massive intelligence failure - or maybe even an intentional one, with the expectation that an attack would reunite the Israelis and no expectation that the attack would be as massive and horrific as it was. I've seen some coverage suggesting that even Hamas leaders were surprised by the scale of the attack, but who knows at this point.

In any case there is nothing that would please me more than to see Netanyahu and his Likud cronies get pilloried by the Israeli people for everything they've done to help bring about this horror. And of course I wish I lived in a world without war and where peaceful solutions for every conflict between peoples could be pursued, but this ain't that world.

On my way down to New Bedford this morning to attend an all day volunteer training (it's lunchtime), I listened to Bill Maher and one of his guests (can't remember who) said that if the Palestinians would put down their guns, there would have been peace decades ago. But if the Israelis put down their guns, there wouldn't be anymore Jews left in the Middle East.

Chalk up my ignorance of peace to the fact that I grew up with violent abusers who instilled in me very early the realization that some people cannot be reasoned with and have no better nature to appeal to.

[BoSoxGal]

Once, I Was a Peace Advocate. Now, I Have No Idealism Left.
After terrorists killed my cousin Daniel Pearl, my family called for peace. But after the worldwide celebration of our people’s slaughter, my hope for peace is dead.

By Ilan Benjamin

October 13, 2023


The story I’m about to tell is one that many progressive Jews can relate to. In some ways, it’s a prototypical arc of a diaspora Jew who has always advocated for nuance. This week, something broke in us. We watched history repeat itself. Not just on the global scale, with the wanton massacre of our people, the savage mass murders and dismemberments of entire families and communities. But for many, my family included, history is repeating itself on a personal level as well.

In March 2003, I turned 13 and celebrated my bar mitzvah in Walnut Creek, California. By Jewish tradition, I became a man. But the ceremony felt redundant; I had already grown up. Only one year earlier, my older cousin, Daniel Pearl, an investigative journalist for The Wall Street Journal, was kidnapped and beheaded by Islamist jihadis while on assignment in Pakistan.

His killers, like the Hamas killers of last weekend, proudly released a video documenting Danny’s murder. Among Danny’s last words were, “My father is Jewish. My mother is Jewish. I am Jewish.” At first, I was in shock—how had my own cousin become a player in such a large international nightmare? Why did people get murdered simply for being who they are? In this case, for being Jewish?

Danny’s parents did not call for revenge. Instead they set up The Daniel Pearl Foundation that offers fellowships, sponsors cross-cultural music events (Danny was a gifted musician), and brings people together to improve the world. Even after what my family had been through, their work encouraged me to be idealistic and believe that the Jewish people could make peace with our neighbors. I became a fierce advocate for peace.

When I immigrated to Israel at the age of 18 and enlisted in the Israel Defense Forces, I was still driven by ideals. I thought I could promote more goodwill with our Palestinian neighbors. Serving in a combat unit based on the Gaza border, I witnessed the release of the kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, held for five years by Hamas, when his freedom was exchanged for more than 1,000 Palestinian prisoners. One for 1,000. Despite my many criticisms of the Israeli government, I recognized then how much Israel valued the life of every soldier.

On my rare free weekend, I spent my time at Kibbutz Be’eri. Because I was a “lone soldier”—that is, an immigrant without much close family in Israel—I was given a host family. They treated me like a son, including teasing me relentlessly for choosing to come to Israel and serve, whereas most Israelis have no choice. They were politically left, just like me. Despite rockets often raining down on them, they believed in peace, just like me. This week, when the terrorists came, ideals didn’t make a difference.

I watched the news in horror as terrorists massacred over 100 people at Kibbutz Be’eri. Women. Children. I frantically messaged my host family and heard nothing back. Like my cousin Danny years ago, my family was being held hostage. The good news: unlike Danny, my host family at Kibbutz Be’eri was saved. They are physically okay. But how can they really be okay, after watching their friends and neighbors being slaughtered?

There was a time when these types of events couldn’t shake my ideals. I used to argue relentlessly for a two-state solution. I fought bitterly with Israeli friends about the decency of the Palestinian people. Even though radical Islamists had murdered my cousin, even though civilians had been blown up in buses daily during the Second Intifada, I refused to give in to nihilism.

In 2012, I returned to the States to study film at University of Southern California, and published a book about my military service that criticized the Israeli government. This didn’t win me many friends, but I continued to advocate for nuance regardless. I proudly supported Black Lives Matter, LGBTQIA+, and feminist causes. I called myself a progressive Jew.

But over the years, I noticed a disturbing trend: With all the atrocities in the world, why did my social justice warrior friends hate Israel so disproportionately? Why did it feel like intersectionality excluded Jews? Why did the left—who supposedly stood up for human rights—put child-murdering Hamas terrorists on a pedestal?

At first, I thought it must be miseducation.

“Ah, they think Palestinians are the indigenous people. I’ll show that Jewish history, and the archaeology to prove it, dates back millennia.”

“Ah, they think we’re white colonizers. I’ll show how many Jews are people of color, including those who are Mizrahi, Sephardi, and Ethiopian.”

“Ah, they’ll get it once I show them that there are fifty Muslim countries, and only one Jewish state.”

But my friends weren’t interested in correcting their misunderstandings.

I agreed that the settlements were unlawful, that Gaza was a humanitarian crisis, that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyuahu was a dictator. I assumed—if I cared enough, if I mourned for the Palestinian dead, if I put nuance above all else—our neighbors and their allies would give us the same decency.

How wrong I was. This past week, as over 1,300 Jews were slaughtered, the most murderous attack on Jews since the Holocaust, I saw the true face of Palestinians and their allies. All around the world, they celebrate. They gloat. They mock our tears. They do not protest against Hamas. They embrace pure evil.

And so, to the terrorists I now say:

When you killed my family, I forgave you. When you killed my people, I forgave you. But when you killed my idealism, I had no forgiveness left.

To non-Jewish friends who have reached out, thank you. It is simply the human thing to do. To friends who dare justify what has happened, you are not friends. You are nothing but Nazi supporters dressed up in leftist intellectual language. To the Palestinians: you have lost all moral authority to claim victimhood. I will never advocate for you again. To my family, friends in Israel, and Jews around the world hurting right now, I love you. Stay safe.

In Berlin, where I live today with my German-Ukrainian Jewish wife, Germans love to say “Never Again.” Right now, Never Again is happening again in real time, livestreamed for the whole world to see. I find myself looking up my military number in case the IDF reserves call for me. Unlike our enemy, I feel no joy at the prospect of going to war. But if our people’s existence is at stake, I will do what I must. I will be the world’s favorite villain: the Jew who has the audacity to defend his people.

[liberty]

My solution is for the US to invade Baja California, take it over, give it to Israel and make it our 51st state. The state of Israel would settle there, set up a new Jerusalem and other new holy places and be charged with control of the southern US border keeping drugs and illegals out with a new improved iron dome. The Palestinians, Hamas and Hezbollah could all get together and work out their problems back in the Middle East without any interference from us or Israel.

You're not the first to suggest something similar; see Birobidzhan and British Uganda Program.

The situation of the people of Gaza is the same as it was for the people of Nazi Germany. Hamas is the government of Gaza, and the people of Gaza are just as responsible for the actions of their government as the people of Nazi Germany were for theirs. Unfortunately, so much suffering has to happen but there is no other way anything else will just prolong suffering for generations.

The situation is not even remotely the same and Hamas is the "government" of Gaza only in the way warlords and their gangs are the "government" of the territory they occupy. And just who do you think has been propping up Hamas over the last 16 years? It's Netanyahu himself, who has been using them to divide Palestinians, keep the PA and more legitimate political parties weak, and sabotage any prospects for a genuine Palestinian state. Netanyahu's gamesmanship has now come around to bite him in the ass, and the ignorant of the world cheer him on in punishing the people of Gaza for it.

First let me make this clear again I have no dog in a fight if Israel was to disappear and the Jews exterminated that would not have a real effect, except some nightmares, for me or my people. There would be one less Democratic country in the world but that is not unusual. As I’ve said before I can’t be against the Jewish people my God has commanded it, but I’m not Jewish so their fight is not necessarily mine.

Governance of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia

Are you saying that Hamas is worse than the Nazis? I agree they’re comparable with the NAZIs. Hamas came to power the same way the Nazis did, they were elected. I know there was a civil war, but Hamas won the war and is now the rulers of Gaza. The people of Gaza accepted their rule and that makes them their government. And I have no doubt that Hamas would exterminate the Jewish people if they had the ability to do it and we could do nothing about it but protests. It is up to the Jews to protect themselves and I think that’s what they will do.

[Jarlaxle]

Creating more angry Palestinians is absolutely counter-productive for Israel.

^^^^THIS.^^^^

Wipe them out. Treat Gaza like Carthage.

[BoSoxGal]

Some relevant reading from NATO COE:
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles ... hields.pdf

[Burning Petard]

The current government in Iran has 'hostages' as a regular tool in its international relations tool box. Early on it had experience with wholesale hostages when the US Embassy was captured. Since then it has actively used hostages on a retail basis, one or a few at a time. Iran is a close supporter of Hamas.

USA foreign policy began active involvement with hostages almost from its beginning, with the Barbary Pirates. That experience has been recently been reviewed because of its declaration from the American side that we have no quarrel with Islam in general, as a national policy.

Just how does 'taking hostages' work in international relations? A screw driver can be very useful. Occasionally I have used a heavy screwdriver handle to pound on something. A hammer would have been more useful, but a screwdriver was what was in my hand.

What is the value of a a dead hostage? Seems to me it only results in greater motivation to do harm to the side that has taken the hostages.

Snailgate.

[Bicycle Bill]

The problem in Israel and the Gaza right now is eerily similar to the quandary the US found itself in during the Vietnam conflict — or just about any other military incursion we (the US) has found ourself in since then.   Israel has declared war against an 'army' of guerillas and terrorists, but this army, just like the Viet Cong, or the Somalis, or Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, does not wear uniforms or have other means of readily identifying them until/unless they're pulling a trigger.   So how do you tell the civilians from the terrorists — or more accurately, the terrorists who temporarily set aside their weapons and then hide in plain sight by pretending to be merely civilians?

You can't.   Instead, you adopt the old Vietnam adage — "Kill 'em all and let Allah sort 'em out."

-"BB"-

[Jarlaxle]

Treat Gaza like Carthage.

[BoSoxGal]

I started my day with some live coverage of Gaza and the inhumanity unfolding there.

Then I spent an hour or so watching short YouTube videos on AJ+ from the Palestinian perspective.

Then I watched a documentary on PBS about the blasphemy laws in Pakistan.

Then not having yet sufficiently ruined my Sunday, I watched the excellent four episode Doc World series on PBS called Afghanistan: The Wounded Land.

And now I am crushed by despair and lacking any hope that any of this ever gets better anywhere that it is happening because there are just too many generations of hurt people hurting people and no way out.

[Scooter]

This morning I saw a clip of Golda Meir in 1969, speaking as a grandmother who wanted peace for her grandchildren, and how there were grandmothers in Israel and in all the surrounding states in conflict with it, who wanted violence to end. And I was sad and in despair, because three generations of grandmothers in the region had not lived to see peace.

[Burning Petard]

It is conventional wisdom in the USA halls of military planing that in a war on terrorism, where the terrorists are integrated within the larger society, that killing ONE non-involved civilian, produces Fifteen new terrorist recruits. In the current world, the Carthage solution is not possible. Gaza, Jordan, Syria, Sudan, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, etc will all quickly become part of this new Carthage.

The immediate policy of Israel, seems to be to clear out the "Northern" sector of Gaza and use it as a free-fire zone. Is interesting, but puzzling. There is no reason to assume that Hamas cells will not be part of the first to leave and find well-prepared places for them to formulate their own next wave of attacks against Israel. Gaza is surrounded, so any artillery or rockets fired in any direction will reach Israel. There seems to be no near time strategy for Israel but total destruction. That is a sure route to failure in the long term. It certainly has been a failure for each historical wave of anti-semitism and military efforts to destroy 'Zionism'. Now Israel appears to have been lured into that same trap of self-destruction.

It is not a good tactic to leave your enemy nowhere to hide or retreat. Then they have no reason to do anything beyond make their own death as costly as they can.

snailgate

[Jarlaxle]

It is conventional wisdom in the USA halls of military planing that in a war on terrorism, where the terrorists are integrated within the larger society, that killing ONE non-involved civilian, produces Fifteen new terrorist recruits. In the current world, the Carthage solution is not possible. Gaza, Jordan, Syria, Sudan, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, etc will all quickly become part of this new Carthage.

The immediate policy of Israel, seems to be to clear out the "Northern" sector of Gaza and use it as a free-fire zone. Is interesting, but puzzling. There is no reason to assume that Hamas cells will not be part of the first to leave and find well-prepared places for them to formulate their own next wave of attacks against Israel. Gaza is surrounded, so any artillery or rockets fired in any direction will reach Israel. There seems to be no near time strategy for Israel but total destruction. That is a sure route to failure in the long term. It certainly has been a failure for each historical wave of anti-semitism and military efforts to destroy 'Zionism'. Now Israel appears to have been lured into that same trap of self-destruction.

It is not a good tactic to leave your enemy nowhere to hide or retreat. Then they have no reason to do anything beyond make their own death as costly as they can.

snailgate

Then eradicate them. No prisoners, no survivors, just a couple billion cubic feet of nerve gas.