Israel at War

[Bicycle Bill]

I can’t do that, but as a military man I know a nation can only do so much. If we allow a second front to open up, we will lose in Ukraine; to win we have to concentrate all of our efforts there.

Who is this "we" you keep jibber-jabbering about?   Or is that a use of the royal "we"?   

As for me, I'm perfectly content to let Russia and Ukraine duke it out between themselves.  Give Ukraine whatever they need; shit, even some of the 'outdated' military hardware (can you say 'A-10 Thunderbolt' or 'F-15 Strike Eagle'?) we've got would be enough to tip the balance in Ukraine's favor — although they seem to be doing pretty well with what they've already got at their disposal.

And the same goes for Israel.  Just stand back and watch them do what they do best — vengeance, swift and sure; an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.  Although I'm sure there are already some significant shake-ups coming for the Israeli intelligence community for letting something like this happen in the first place.

What I cannot fathom is why there are elite universities in America issuing student statements of support for what Hamas has done on behalf of the Palestinian people - blaming Israel alone for the violence perpetrated on them in this horrific Yom Kippur terror attack. Thirty one student organizations at Harvard University made such a declaration yesterday!

That statement came from a group that identified itself as the "Harvard Undergraduate Palestine Solidarity Committee", and I can just about guess what sort of other student groups signed off in support of it.  Meanwhile, the administration at Harvard, while acknowledging that students do have the right and privilege of speaking for themselves but not for Harvard, issued a statement denouncing the Hamas attack

-"BB"-

[wesw]

i just hope that the wailing wall doesn t come down.

i believe that they are last stones left standing

[Jarlaxle]

Hamas beheaded babies in the Kfar Aza kibbutz outside Gaza. They killed 40 babies, and beheaded some of them.

I know human beings are capable of extreme atrocities.

What I cannot fathom is why there are elite universities in America issuing student statements of support for what Hamas has done on behalf of the Palestinian people - blaming Israel alone for the violence perpetrated on them in this horrific Yom Kippur terror attack. Thirty one student organizations at Harvard University made such a declaration yesterday!

After 9/11 I read Gore Vidal’s Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace which taught me lessons of American history that I never learned in school. It certainly made me understand better the anger and even hatred for America which some people in this world carry in them. But I would never be able to think that the atrocities of 9/11 were justified by the many terrible crimes of various American governments.

Bluntly, because they hate Jews. Yes, I think it's really that simple. They hate Jews and would cheer the destruction of Israel.

[BoSoxGal]

[BoSoxGal]

'So the World Knows What Happened': The Scene of Slaughter at Kibbutz Kfar Azza

[BoSoxGal]

Why couldn’t the UN and Red Crescent establish refugee centers in Egypt to which innocent Palestinians especially women and children could be temporarily relocated while the IDF crushes all the Hamas cockroaches?

After months of successfully kicking a bad news habit I have fallen off the wagon very hard this week. Watching coverage today with more details of the massacres carried out by Hamas terrorists instilled me with a rage that felt almost scary. And such a profound sorrow for lives lost and for lifelong animosity sown. But I don’t see how Israel does anything other than crush Hamas.

[liberty]

Why couldn’t the UN and Red Crescent establish refugee centers in Egypt to which innocent Palestinians especially women and children could be temporarily relocated while the IDF crushes all the Hamas cockroaches?

After months of successfully kicking a bad news habit I have fallen off the wagon very hard this week. Watching coverage today with more details of the massacres carried out by Hamas terrorists instilled me with a rage that felt almost scary. And such a profound sorrow for lives lost and for lifelong animosity sown.

I wish I could say something to help you, but what works for me would not necessarily work for you. It is nothing new to me; I have experienced it since childhood. Exposing myself to negative Stimuli desensitizes me too that stimulus. In other words, I think about bad things, before they happen, that makes me emotionally tougher. I have an advantage that many people don’t have. I had a horrendous childhood; I had a stepfather who tried to emotionally destroy me. I didn’t know it at the time, but the reason was that I was the son of a Mexican cook who worked with my mother at one of her first jobs. He resented it anytime that I equaled my brother in anything and tried to tear me down to make my brother feel superior; that experience alone made me tougher.

Try thinking of it as history rather than current events as though it’s already happened and there’s nothing can be done about it, maybe that will help.

[liberty]

Egypt is afraid to allow refugees out of Gaza into their country because they don’t want Hamas either for the obvious reason. However, it seems they at least could allow the children in; they could be sent to orphanages around the world. That wouldn’t be great but would be better than being in Gaza.

[Bicycle Bill]

Just FYI ... this was originally aired almost ten years ago, in 2014.
Some things, they never change.

-"BB"-

[Big RR]

BSG--while I agree Israel should (and perhaps even must) respond, I do have a serious concern with the tactics. Bombarding Gaza while cutting off humanitarian aid seems a lot like terrorism to me--make it hard on the civilians so they will give up any leaning toward the enemy. Civilians, including children, are being killed and maimed by the scores, and the chances for any medical relief are grossly reduced when power, fuel, food, medicines, etc. are cut off in a stranglehold. Yes it is a battle, but certainly Israel can do better; sure it's tough to deal with terrorist groups, but you don't "win" y adapting their tactics. Sure, Egypt could help by permitting refugee centers, but Israel could try to select its targets for the deterrence values, not to spread dread among the populace, and by admitting humanitarian aid to Gaza. It's hard to be the bigger man in a fight, but being the bigger man creates a responsibility to fight more fairly. And, IMHO, we have a right to demand that of anyone who wants our support.

[Sue U]

Why couldn’t the UN and Red Crescent establish refugee centers in Egypt to which innocent Palestinians especially women and children could be temporarily relocated while the IDF crushes all the Hamas cockroaches?

It's a logistical impossibility. There are 2 million Palestinians in Gaza, half of them children, and there is no way to efficiently move them to a "safe" location (i.e., deport them) while Israel destroys their homes in what could only be classified as a war crime -- not to mention the fact that Israel has been bombing and destroying the roads that lead from Gaza to the Egyptian border crossing.

Israel has already lost the moral high ground with what is effectively collective punishment of Gaza and it risks a full-scale uprising in the West Bank and attacks in the north from militias in Lebanon and Syria if it continues its course in Gaza. Even with full mobilization of the IDF, this is not the time to let rage and retaliation overrule rational (even if distasteful) negotiations. Also, Hamas holds at least 14 and maybe 20 or more American citizens among its hostages, and the US would certainly be justified in pressuring Israel to stop its onslaught at least for the sake of retrieving those people.

[Big RR]

This is my biggest concern with the statement of Israel to evacuate the city in 24 hours. No transportation, no fuel, no way to get anywhere, but they try to pretend that they are looking out for civilians. If they don't leave it's not their fault. Sure.

[BoSoxGal]

How do you negotiate with people whose manifesto asserts the desire to exterminate your people, who have declared outright that while Jews love life, Hamas happily embraces death and martyrdom in the pursuit of protecting Allah’s land against the Jews? Who have exhibited an ability to commit atrocities equal to those committed by the Nazis, and who are happy to impoverish and intimidate and destroy their own people in the process?

Honestly, how?

I have deep empathy for the people in Gaza who are actually innocent.

There were some civilian Germans who didn’t embrace the deep centuries old German tradition of antisemitism. Some of them were surely among the civilian casualties of the Allies’ defeat of the Nazis. Were America and her allies morally repugnant for killing some innocent Germans in the process of putting down the evil of Nazism?



liberty I have such strong feelings about all this, in large part because the cause of the Jews will always be tied up in my head with the violence and psychological abuse I suffered as a child growing up with a violent alcoholic wife abusing child abusing Nazi sympathizer, a man whose prime life regrets include having been born in America and not by his cousins back home in Germany so he could be a real Nazi and not just a sympathizer. I know how sickening antisemitism can hide in seemingly normal people.

My father would always have abused me because he is a twisted misogynist among other monstrous tendencies, but his hatred of me was inflamed by my early recognition of his repulsive antisemitism and my fundamental inability to fawn over him upon that realization, which came in grade school when I read Anne Frank and a YA novel called Alan & Naomi. I already knew my father was a bigot because of the awful names he used to refer to various people in our society, but it was when I spoke about the Holocaust at family dinner one night that my father told me the only thing wrong with Hitler was that he didn’t finish the job of exterminating the Jews. When my father saw my horror at his words (I was just 9 years old), he made it his habit to remind me at every turn about his vile Nazi sympathies.

My whole life has been a repudiation of my father’s hatred. I have spent my life working for the benefit of all the people my father hated. At one time in my youth I studied Judaism with the idea of conversion - I thought I should marry a Jew and raise Jewish children - but along the way I realized I was an atheist so that wouldn’t be right. But I have always felt a deep affinity for the Jewish people because we were both hated so much by my father, who tried killing me in the womb so yeah, he definitely hated me.

Yesterday I was reading German political scientist Matthias Kuntzel’s book Jihad and Jew-Hatred. Islamism, Nazism and the Roots of 9/11. I don’t know if he is entirely correct about the roots of modern antisemitism in the Middle East having ties to Nazism but he certainly makes a strong case. Most importantly to my mind is the recognition that there are a great many people in the Arab world who revile Jews for existing, and after 53 years of watching the same cycle of violence I’m not sure how it is ever going to be possible to negotiate to peace with people who want you and your babies dead dead dead in the most ugly and horrific ways.

I want to add that I respect the position of empathy for the Gazans, I wholeheartedly agree that especially recent Israeli policy toward Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank has been counterproductive and has included human rights violations but Israel is not Netanyahu and the Hamas massacre of Jews this last weekend was not justified by anything Israel government has done.

And I don’t know how America can do anything but wholeheartedly support Israel in going after Hamas given what we did to Iraqis and Afghanis in our pursuit of the war on terror after 9/11.

[Big RR]

How do you negotiate with people whose manifesto asserts the desire to exterminate your people, who have outright that while Jews love life, Hamas happily embraces death and martyrdom in the pursuit of protecting Allah’s land against the Jews? Who have exhibited an ability to commit atrocities equal to those committed by the Nazis, and who are happy to impoverish and intimidate and destroy their own people in the process?

I don't really know, but targeting civilians to spread terror (and hopefully to get them to reject Hamas) has not worked before and will not work now. One thing I think could help is to stop the war rhetoric and treat Hamas as the criminals they are--hunting them down rather than just targeting an entire populace. Or maybe trying to get the moderates on your side rather than making them think they are just cannon fodder. Or at least permit humanitarian aid to enter and permit the civilians harmed to be attended to. But to just say "this is all out war" just makes sure the hatred will continue going forward. Constantly demanding an eye for an eye, demonizing our "enemy" as not being human, achieves nothing but more hatred. Sure, I understand the frustration, but we have to do better. Anything less just propels us to our collective doom.

the Hamas massacre of Jews this last weekend was not justified by anything Israel government has done

justified? Of course not; there is no excuse. Just as there is no excuse for the excesses of the response and the suffering inflicted on many innocents, including children. Out and out terrorism is never justified; it may have its causes, but there are no excuses.

[Sue U]

How do you negotiate with people whose manifesto asserts the desire to exterminate your people, who have declared outright that while Jews love life, Hamas happily embraces death and martyrdom in the pursuit of protecting Allah’s land against the Jews? Who have exhibited an ability to commit atrocities equal to those committed by the Nazis, and who are happy to impoverish and intimidate and destroy their own people in the process?

Honestly, how?

By recognizing that we want something they have, and they want something we could provide. The scope of things on either side of that equation is variable, but that's what negotiation is about. Sure, you hate me and want me and my children dead, but right now you also want food, water, electricity, security, medical care, international aid, construction materials, etc. I hate Hamas and want its leaders jailed for life, but right now I also want hostages returned, security, etc. No one is going to get everything they want, and some things (probably including murderers and their commanders being brought to justice) will have to wait.

I have deep empathy for the people in Gaza who are actually innocent.

There were some civilian Germans who didn’t embrace the deep centuries old German tradition of antisemitism. Some of them were surely among the civilian casualties of the Allies’ defeat of the Nazis. Were America and her allies morally repugnant for killing some innocent Germans in the process of putting down the evil of Nazism?

I'm not sure that war between state actors can really be equated to a state campaign against a terrorist group, and war is almost always the worst solution to any problem. (Also, at least for the Allies, WWII was not about Nazis murdering Jews and other minorities deemed subhuman.) But there are "rules of war" and there are "war crimes," and there is at least the potential for those prosecuting a war to be prosecuted criminally themselves for such violations.

I want to add that I respect the position of empathy for the Gazans, I wholeheartedly agree that especially recent Israeli policy toward Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank has been counterproductive and has included human rights violations but Israel is not Netanyahu and the Hamas massacre of Jews this last weekend was not justified by anything Israel government has done.

And I don’t know how America can do anything but wholeheartedly support Israel in going after Hamas given what we did to Iraqis and Afghanis in our pursuit of the war on terror after 9/11.

Wholehearted support of Israel does not mean giving it carte blanche to (further) abuse Palestinian civilians, and our colossally wrong decisions to go to war with Iraq and Afghanistan rather than round up the actual criminals of 9/11 do not justify Israel's decision here. In fact, just as the US lost the moral high ground with ill-considered military action after 9/11, Israel is losing it here for largely the same reasons.

Palestinians have legitimate grievances against Israel generally and the Netanyahu government in particular. Israel should not be using a "war" specifically against Hamas terrorists as an excuse to ignore and drown out the complaints of Palestinians generally.

ETA:

I also agree with Big RR's post above.

[MajGenl.Meade]

What they wrote . . . Sue and BigRR

[BoSoxGal]

It seems like the Jews are expected to take the massacres and kidnappings on the chin and to behave better than any other nation would.

If thousands of armed Mexicans crossed into southern USA and raped and pillaged and burned out entire communities of American citizens, we would flatten a whole bunch of stuff in Mexico with barely a moment to plan it. Even after everything we have learned from Korea to Vietnam through the fall of Afghanistan to Taliban 2.0.

Jews just can’t catch a break.

They’re begging Gaza civilians to flee so they can go after the Hamas cockroaches - apologies to cockroaches who serve a useful purpose in the ecosystem. If Gaza civilians have no place to go, how is that solely the fault of Israel? Why do all the other Arab nations get a pass on the Palestinian problem?

I know we could go in circles about all of this, but I maintain that Israel has the right as any nation would to go hunting for the monsters who carried out these atrocities and if I’m being totally honest I’m not longing for trials for Hamas operatives and leadership. Feed them to the cockroaches.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Where are they to go? Their choices are: Israel (er . . . no), the sea (er . . . no), Egypt (which doesn't want a million or more refugees and how do they filter out Hamas fighters?) and er . . . cramming into the mid/southern bit of Gaza. What other "Arab" countries are supposed to let the refugees in - how would they get there?

It's not OK to force 1 million people to start walking southish just because Israel wants to flatten northern Gaza. It's not humane to close hospitals, shell same, embargo fuel, water, electricity no matter what a few hundred Hamas gunmen did. The civilians are under the Hamas thumb - don't forget it was the Palestinian Authority that ran Gaza and Hamas who threw them out.

There seems to be some confusion over the difference between tracking down and killing murderers and exacting vengeance on men, women and children who had nothing to do with it. The atavistic urge to scorch earth northern Gaza is on a par with Hamas' vile killings of kibbutzik.

Creating more angry Palestinians is absolutely counter-productive for Israel.

I blame the British

[Sue U]

It seems like the Jews are expected to take the massacres and kidnappings on the chin and to behave better than any other nation would.

If thousands of armed Mexicans crossed into southern USA and raped and pillaged and burned out entire communities of American citizens, we would flatten a whole bunch of stuff in Mexico with barely a moment to plan it. Even after everything we have learned from Korea to Vietnam through the fall of Afghanistan to Taliban 2.0.

And it would show we hadn't actually learned a thing from all those conflicts.

Jews just can’t catch a break.

Well, the last 2600 years have had some pretty rough spots. And then there was that whole Egyptian slavery thing that started us out.

They’re begging Gaza civilians to flee so they can go after the Hamas cockroaches - apologies to cockroaches who serve a useful purpose in the ecosystem. If Gaza civilians have no place to go, how is that solely the fault of Israel? Why do all the other Arab nations get a pass on the Palestinian problem?

Arguably, the war is actually an ethnic cleansing operation intended to destroy Palestinians' homes and dispossess them of their lands -- and not without substantial evidence, given the Israeli government's behavior in the West Bank over the last year since Smotrich and Ben Gvir were brought into the coalition. And how is the "Palestinian problem" the responsibility of other (Arab) governments? I mean aside from the fact that they have been playing less-than-willing hosts to Palestinian refugees for the last 75 years?

I know we could go in circles about all of this, but I maintain that Israel has the right as any nation would to go hunting for the monsters who carried out these atrocities and if I’m being totally honest I’m not longing for trials for Hamas operatives and leadership. Feed them to the cockroaches.

I don't disagree. But hunting for monsters shouldn't include genociding the population in which they're hiding.

I blame the British

Yet another thing we can agree on!

[rubato]

We have had peace with Germany and japan because we sacrificed to rebuild both of them. An act unique in history. Normally a victorious army loots everything, rapes and kidnaps the women. Israel needs to forgive and provide humanitarian aid the Palestinians. As should we. We should pour out rivers of resources. Otherwise Gaza will be a fertile vineyard for creating masses of hate filled terrorists for generations to come. And they will have good reasons