Israel at War

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Israel at War

Post by BoSoxGal »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2023 7:52 pm
Sounds more than bad growing up, BSG. Sorry for that. Are you convinced that living like a man is a good thing? Who is the role model for that?

Maybe I don't hang around with the scum you seem to live among. I'd agree that there's no equal division of labor in the home, even mine, but we (Margareta and I) don't think that's even possible. Example: she does all the thinking for meals and writing an indecipherable shopping list. I take the list and do the shopping and phoning home to ask "what are cffgrtls?" We split the cooking but I do the dishes - don't allow my wife anywhere near a dishwasher or the sink most of the time. Women can't pack a dishwasher or the back of a car properly.

Now she does the laundry - in he machine and dryer - I bring it down, fold it and bring it back up when its dry. I put my own stuff away and place hers in the approved location pending her systematic sub-arrangement. I drive. I'm a rotten passenger. On long trips, I allow her to ask if she can drive for an hour or two and am responsible for saying "No. I'm fine". She does the gardening. I kill things, including plants, so she's happy if I don't.

I find out why her computer has gone wrong and fix it. Ditto fixing other things. She plans how the place looks. I mess it up. We rarely disagree with any vehemence but when we do, I am wrong. Or if not wrong, then responsible for the apologetic reconciliation. My wife does 100% of the financial jiggery-pokery. She prefers me not to touch money or an financial instruments.

We try to be servants to each other. Most of the men and women I know have similar working relationships with their respective spouses.

Which causes me to wonder how many awful people with whom you come into contact. :cry:
I’m sure you think everything is just fine in the household division of labor in your house Meade. I’m sure your wife does too, definitely by this point.

And of course you can jump to belittling me for the quality of people I hang around with (nevermind decades of a professional life including the observation of dozens and dozens of marriages) and brushing aside the shit ton of social science research on this topic, and the fact that younger women are marrying in fewer numbers in large part because of that issue, and the related outrageously unfair division of childcare labor in most marriages which had also been studied exhaustively by professionals who must all hang out with inferior quality people compared to Meade.

:roll: :loon
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Re: Israel at War

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Please don’t hijack this thread any further. If you want to start a smack down of BSG for being a misogyny hating cunt whose friends and loved ones and acquaintances are all scum, feel free to start a whole thread for that purpose.
Last edited by BoSoxGal on Wed Oct 18, 2023 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Re: Israel at War

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I just saw this piece on MSNBC about five Israeli brothers on their way to war.

https://youtu.be/tf40nbyxumU?si=hLTxPQpWCXuPzNoN

This poor mother with five sons going to war - will any come home? I hope they park one behind a supply desk for her sake.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Re: Israel at War

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I was with you until this...
BoSoxGal wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2023 7:19 pm
...Sure, sure - the story goes ‘not all men.’ But sorry guys, ALL you motherfuckers are complicit. It’s been tens of thousands of years and you can’t rein in your sick cousins? Sick violent man culture is grown among men, and far too many of you don’t say anything about it 99% of the time across the course of your lives when you have the chance to - don’t want to rock the boat, or be a not cool bro instead of a cool bro. But some of you will sure take every opportunity to rage at women who are MAN HATERS for simply refusing to be silent about the sick violence of men which destroys the lives of tens of millions of women and children. Don’t make me feel bad!!!! The whiny mantoddlers cry.
I can't cure men. Besides that, we are not all sick. I can only deal with what happens in my world. I have helped female victims of domestic violence more than a few times in my life. They weren't all abused only by men. They were hurt by parents, brothers, sisters, cousins and people in general.

Go meet liberty! I bet he's a good man when he's not being a racist... :loon

Take photos and share them here.... :D

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Re: Israel at War

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2023 8:01 pm
Please don’t hijack this thread any further. If you want to start a smack down of BSG for being a misogyny hating cunt whose friends and loved ones and acquaintances are all scum, feel free to start a whole thread for that purpose.
Well, you don't get to tell me not to do this or that... OK, you can but I don't have to oblige.

You just tee-off in completely false directions at the drop of a hat. Nothing I said could remotely be considered a "smack down" of you, nor your friends or loved ones. You chose to express your opinions about men and the marriages you observe. I chose to suggest that perhaps those are the wrong people by whom to judge others.

There's no need for extended discussion here. I'll agree on that. But please try to read what's there and not make up causes of offense that don't exist.
Last edited by MajGenl.Meade on Wed Oct 18, 2023 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Israel at War

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MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2023 8:24 pm
There's no need for extended discussion here. I'll agree on that. But please try to read what's there and not make up causes of offense that don't exist.
You disregarded my comments on misogyny manifest in one way as inequitable division of household labor as based in my extensive experience and acquaintance with scum. That’s pretty plainly written in the words you used, Meade.

And you persist in multiple posts to ignore outright that there is, in fact, a SHIT TON of sociological research establishing the persistence of such functional misogyny among nice people in nice marriages world fucking wide.

I won’t discuss this further with you because you are arguing like a child.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Re: Israel at War

Post by Econoline »

War expert.jpg
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Re: Israel at War

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‘Do not use our pain to bring death’: plea to Israel from peace activists’ grieving families

Relatives of campaigners killed by Hamas, such as Hayim Katsman, are among the few Israelis arguing against revenge

Noy Katsman knew the eulogy for their murdered brother would anger some who came to mourn, but did not want the violence of Hayim Katsman’s death to eclipse his life as a peace activist.

Grief and loss at Hayim’s slaughter was magnified by watching Israel launch a war in his name, said Noy, who is non-binary. So at the funeral, relying on a Jewish tradition of respect for the bereaved, Noy called for it to stop.

“Do not use our death and our pain to bring the death and pain of other people and other families,” Noy told the hundreds-strong crowd, as the government bombed Gaza and prepared for a massive ground invasion. “I have no doubt that even in the face of Hamas people that murdered him … he would still speak out against the killing and violence of innocent people.”

Arguing against retaliation in Gaza, as Israel reels from the scale and brutality of the massacres by Hamas on 7 October, is unpopular. At one point in the eulogy the mourners tutted in anger and disapproval.

But afterwards Hayim’s friends came to thank Noy. “One told me: ‘It’s exactly what your brother would have wanted you to say.’”

Hayim and Noy are part of Israel’s relatively small community of leftists, peace activists and human rights campaigners, people who broadly believe their country cannot fight its way to peace.

They were hit particularly hard, personally and politically, by the massacres on 7 October, as Hamas militants targeted places that were historically centres of leftist zionism, where many have friends and relatives.

“In the communities affected in the south, the kibbutzim, where people were injured and kidnapped and slaughtered by Hamas, so many of them fought for peace, so many of them were dreaming of a different future,” said Avner Gvaryahu, the executive director of Breaking the Silence, a group founded by Israeli combat veterans to document military abuses in the occupied Palestinian territories.

“There are members of all the leading human rights organisations that are kidnapped or dead or injured or traumatised.”

Hayim was one of the former IDF soldiers who testified for Breaking the Silence, which is banned from Israeli schools, has been vilified by many in the government and faced arson attacks for its work.

An academic who researched the religious right in Israel, he spent time with Palestinian farming communities in the occupied South Hebron hills, offering through his presence some protection from the Israeli military, police and settlers in the area.

Other victims from the kibbutzim clustered close to Gaza include Shlomi and Shachar Matias, a couple who helped found a bilingual school that taught children in Hebrew and Arabic, under the slogan: Jewish Arab education for equality.

Vivian Silver, a core member of Women Wage Peace, was taken hostage in Gaza. She also helped organise travel for Palestinians in Gaza given rare permission to leave the strip for medical treatment. Several others from that group are believed to be with her, including Oded and Yochka Lifshitz, who are in their 80s.

In the climate of anger and widespread support for war, activist relatives of the dead and missing are trying to navigate both grief and public advocacy, as Noy did.

“I was there,” Ziv Stahl, the executive director of human rights group Yesh Din, wrote in an editorial for Haaretz, of her hours hiding in a safe room with an injured relative. “I have no need of revenge, nothing will return those who are gone. All the military might on Earth will not provide defence and security. A political solution is the only pragmatic thing that is possible.”

For those whose relatives are held hostage in Gaza, there is an added agony to watching Israeli airstrikes on the strip. Neda Heiman, who also works with Women Wage Peace, lost contact with her 84-year-old mother, Ditza Heiman, early on that Saturday morning.

She later saw her in a video, being forced on to a truck by Hamas gunmen and driven towards Gaza. “I still think that only a political solution can solve the problems,” she says, “Bombing Gaza cannot be a permanent solution … We have been there, done that.”

It is not a message getting much airtime in Israel. Noy has given more than 20 interviews about that speech, about Hayim’s work and their own activism. Not a single request has come from Israeli media.

Still, Noy took comfort in online support from both Israelis and people who said they were in Gaza. “I just wanted to tell you how sorry I am for what happened to your brother, and I want to thank you a lot for not wanting us dead like everyone else,” wrote one.

A country that considered its military and intelligence services among the most feared and effective in the world has been devastated by their catastrophic failures. Activists say that the security failings of 7 October were rooted in far deeper failure of political vision – and if that is not addressed, Israel will never be safe.

“You see this pain being used to go in a worse direction that promises us nothing but more pain, more blood, more loss,” said Alon-Lee Green, a board member of Standing Together, a grassroots movement of Jewish and Palestinian citizens of Israel.

“As a state we have the right to defend our citizens from being slaughtered, but we have to answer the very fundamental question: And then what? We conquer the Gaza Strip, and then what?”

Historic arguments?

The left has been a diminishing force in Israel’s politics for decades. In elections in 1992, two parties of the left, Labor and Meretz, got nearly half the vote between them; in the last polls Meretz did not make it into parliament and Labor was down to a single-digit portion of the vote.

Over 20 years, Israel’s right wing has slowly picked apart a broad if reluctant consensus that the path to long-term security was a negotiated resolution with Palestinians, to form two neighbouring states.

In 2003, as the second intifada raged, even the then prime minister, Ariel Sharon, a hawk who had backed settlements in Gaza and the West Bank, argued that Israel could not occupy Palestinian land indefinitely. Sharon had a stroke soon after overseeing Israel’s disengagement from Gaza in 2005.

Netanyahu consolidated his power in part by arguing that Israel could contain Gaza and manage its occupation of the West Bank. Support for a two-state solution crumbled, as Israel built bridges to regional states that once refused to recognise its existence. In recent pre-election polls, security was low on the list of voters’ concerns – the top was the economy.

Many of the massacre’s survivors and bereaved people said they felt abandoned by a government that knew it had few voters in the areas near Gaza. Under Netanyahu, military funds and attention had been shifted to the West Bank and the settler outposts there that were a priority for his voters and allies.

Their warnings went unheard, but now their anger and frustration may be more widely shared. A recent poll commissioned by the Jerusalem Post found that about four in five Israelis blame Netanyahu for the massacres, and most think he should resign when the war is over.

Less clear is whether they are questioning only the man, or also the model of security he offered them.

“For a decade plus we have been telling ourselves fairy tales, that we can ignore the fact that we are controlling millions of people by force,” said, Gvaryahu of Breaking the Silence. “That has totally burst.

“This conception that we can ignore an occupation, ignore that there are millions in Gaza without rights, millions in the West Bank without rights,” he added. “This could be a moment that will cement it, or this might be a moment when we could help change the tide. That is the biggest challenge ahead.”
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Big RR
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Re: Israel at War

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I wish them well; it only takes a single spark to ignite the flames of peace. Unfortinately, I think peace is something most governments fear far more than a continued state of "war". As Jonh Lennon said years ago, "War is over if you want it"; unfortunately, as I have seen on this thread, there are few who really do want it. Peace is a much tougher path than war, but it would be a much more rewarding one. Not to say you can never strike back (turn the other cheek is much better in theory than in practice), but do so out of intellect and a tempered response directed toward an achievable goal, not out of anger and hatred and a desire for revenge. When people demand an eye for an eye, governments are more than happy to comply, but when they demand peace and compassion, they are branded as traitors and unpatriotic (or even cowards).

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Re: Israel at War

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BSG, I think you are kind and generous if you only feel like smashing 5-10 males. Men, the dominant controllers of colonial and Western civilization, have a long track record of spreading pain and destruction. Successful politicians in this culture who are also female, seem to succeed by being "more' than their male roll models. Golda Meir seems to be an exception. While MTG seems more typical to me.

Easy to take an agnostic view that the only good human is a dead human. Kill'em all and let God sort it out. On the other hand, I despise the fundamentalist, 'Evangelical' christian who gleefully quote the last book of the Holy Bible (KJV) and hope the final battle and destruction will be soon.

People (individuals and groups) have made things of beauty and love. I deeply regret that these things are so fragile. Life is complicated.

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Re: Israel at War

Post by liberty »

It appears to me that there are a lot of bigots and Anti Semites on the left; they ignore scientific evidence that the Israelis did not attack the hospital and believe terrorist based only on their word. Just how many bigots are there on the left and do their bigotry extent to people other than the Jews? They deny Israeli Jews the right of self-defense. For the Jews to destroy Hamas is self-defense if they choose to do it.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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Re: Israel at War

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If urging restraint and saying condemning the pursuit of a terrorist agenda against the people of Gaza is bigotry, then so be it. I will not back away from my position. And if I hold Israel to a higher standard, it is because they are our allies and fund much of their "defense" through grants and weapons given to them, paid for through our taxes--I think we all have an interest in how those funds and materiel are used. We have tried to avoid that again and agai in the past when we approved whatever our allies did--we were wrong then as well.

As for the hospital bombing, I am willing to wait and see what is uncovered. But bombarding buildings in Gaza, building up casulaties, and then denying even medical facilities fuel and medicine to treat those casualties is not all that different and is not self defense (nor is it something that is defensible at all). But go ahead and believe it is justified and continue to cheer the slaughter.


This is not left and right; this is not even jewish--moslem--christian; it's more how civilized people should act, even if they are provoked.

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Re: Israel at War

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Just a little good news in the midst of all the heartache:

https://www.boston.com/news/world-news/ ... aturestack
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Re: Israel at War

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I wasn't aware of the recent history of oppression of Israeli Arab citizens expressing themselves regarding the treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli government. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 023-10-20/
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Re: Israel at War

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Looks like it’s open season on Jews and Palestinians in the USA.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Re: Israel at War

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I really can’t stand the news, my usual habits are all discombobulated because I can’t bear to turn on any of the usual news/politics shows that mark some part of my days.

Since last night I’ve been watching an Israeli show on Netflix that I saw mentioned in some article I read. It’s critically acclaimed. Called Fauda, it’s about Israeli intelligence forces and their counterparts in Hamas. The article I read quoted Israelis as saying how realistic it is to the lived experience of being in the conflict, which of course is not in some distance place but it everyone’s backyard. The series is excellent in that it depicts Arab and Jew alike as fully formed humans whose frailties and courage and pain give rise to much sympathy. If you’re looking for a binge I would recommend checking it out.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Re: Israel at War

Post by Bicycle Bill »

I see that BSG is talking to herself again.
BoSoxGal wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:11 pm
The symptoms of cannabis withdrawal may include:
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    Maybe she needs to go back onto her gummies.
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    Re: Israel at War

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    There is no bottom with you.

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    Re: Israel at War

    Post by Econoline »

    Interesting essay on the Palestinian "Right of Return" and the difference between supporting "The Palestinian Cause" vs. supporting "The Palestinian People":
    Zeroing-in on the refugee question is particularly important if we’re concerned about the state of Arab public opinion.

    Guyer writes that “Palestine is so central to the Arab Middle East that even US military leaders historically understood the peril of ignoring the Palestinian cause.” And I think it’s important to understand what that turn of phrase means.

    You might think it means Arab public opinion is extremely sympathetic to Palestinians and eager to see Arab governments help Palestinians have better lives. Were that true, you might expect to see Egypt opening its doors to refugees fleeing the carnage in Gaza. Of course that would be a logistical and economic burden on Egypt. But countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates are right there and could help out with money. You can, of course, understand from general immigration politics why Egypt might not want to do this and why the richer Arab states might not want to help out with money. Generally speaking, “you should do stuff to help foreigners” is a hard sell in politics.

    What’s peculiar about the Palestinian issue, though, is that this normal level of indifference to the welfare of foreigners coexists with what we’re told is a profound level of preoccupation with their fate.

    The key is that their concern is the success of the Palestinian Cause (the reversal of the Nakba) rather than the welfare of the Palestinian people.

    Note that Amnesty sort of glossed over the fact that Palestinian refugees living in Jordan and Lebanon lack full access to employment rights and social services. And in this context, “Palestinian refugees” does not necessarily mean someone who fled from settler violence six weeks ago. If your great-grandparents were kicked out of their village near Acre when they were kids and fled to a refugee camp in Lebanon, and then had children in the 1950s, who had kids in the 1980s, who had you in the 2010s, then you are not a citizen of Lebanon. You are a stateless Palestinian refugee. And the Palestinian cause means fighting for your right to return to that village near Acre, not fighting for your right to enjoy citizenship in the country where you and your parents and your grandparents were born.
    The whole essay is here (but you *might* have to enter your email address—but *NOT* a credit card, or any other payment information—in order to read the whole thing...or you might *not* have to do that. My own experience with Substack seems to vary on a day-to-day basis. :shrug )
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    Re: Israel at War

    Post by BoSoxGal »

    This essay by President Obama, too:

    Thoughts on Israel and Gaza
    For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
    ~ Carl Sagan

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