Israel at War

[BoSoxGal]

I read this piece this morning and have been mulling it all day.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... sh-ghettos


I don’t even know where to start with commentary.

[BoSoxGal]

No thoughts about the state of free speech in Germany.

Any thoughts about Masha Gessen’s overall points?

https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-week ... -holocaust


Maybe it’s all just too depressing.

[BoSoxGal]

Shooting their own hostages waving white flags. https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/15/middleea ... index.html

Shooting women in a church. https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/16/middleea ... index.html

The first one maybe fog of war, but how do you shoot up people in a church? That’s a flagrant violation of the rules of war.

I don’t have links but have heard several troubling news stories in recent weeks about unjustified killings in the West Bank.

How does Netanyahu get reined in?

[Big RR]

How does Netanyahu get reined in?

I don't think he does--the brutality is what the people want. Much as the US was after 9/11; W's administration wasn't particularly reined in either, and that culture still persists to a certain extent. When people get punched, they don't want to talk, they want to punch someone else so they won't feel so vulnerable. Say all you want about the golden rule, an eye (or maybe even more) for an eye is what governs for most.

I am reminded of an old Jewish story I heard when I was a kid; god promised to a man anything he wanted whenever he wanted it, but told him that his worst enemy would get twice that; the went through the usual-- getting money, security, and food, but the benefit to his enemy annoyed him more and more. Finally, he took a stick and told god to "Blind me in one eye"; that's the way most people are--they care far more abut someone else benefiting than how well they are doing (I have had to combat this many times with my clients when negotiating business agreements or divorce settlements). People (OK, most people) cannot be happy unless their enemies are pounded into the ground; guys like Trump and Netanyahu know this and capitalize on it.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I am reminded of an old Jewish story I heard when I was a kid; god promised to a man anything he wanted whenever he wanted it, but told him that his worst enemy would get twice that; the went through the usual-- getting money, security, and food, but the benefit to his enemy annoyed him more and more. Finally, he took a stick and told god to "Blind me in one eye"

Whether it's Jewish or not, I learned that joke when I was about 13 and the punchline was:

I'd like to be beaten half to death

[Big RR]

I don't know Meade--it works, but I never thought of it as a joke; I guess it could be presented that way, but I see it as a lesson more than a joke.

As for being Jewish, a friend of mine who was jewish told me he learned it in a class, so I think it is. But the lesson is universal.

[BoSoxGal]

Interesting article on the two state solution. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... merons-ear

[Big RR]

Interesting; I think Israel was pretty shortsighted in encouraging settlements and bulldozing Palestinian homes to prevent return of Palestinians to those areas. Of course, it could also have been a way to provide them an excuse for not returning any land. I think the two state solution will not work until the people demand it, but it's a lot easier to demand destruction of the "others".

[Sue U]

Interesting; I think Israel was pretty shortsighted in encouraging settlements and bulldozing Palestinian homes to prevent return of Palestinians to those areas. Of course, it could also have been a way to provide them an excuse for not returning any land. I think the two state solution will not work until the people demand it, but it's a lot easier to demand destruction of the "others".

"Israel," writ large, did not encourage West Bank settlements, but the extremist right-wing and religious parties of the settler movement are key to the coalition that keeps Netanyahu in power (and out of prison). In return for their support in Knesset, Likud-led governments have let illegal settlements establish permanency until the facts on the ground overpower any contradictory policy (which only ever got lip service in any event). The linked article lines up with my own assessment: Israel currently has the capacity, but not the political will, to do the hard work of genuine peace and security through investment in legitimate Palestinian self-determination. Things may change after the war is over, but probably not without a lot of coordinated pressure from both the EU and US.

[Big RR]

Sue--sure the extremists were the settlers, but the governments were complicit, permitting (if not encouraging) the settlement construction by bulldozing Palestinian homes and making room for them; sometimes there was token resistance, but mostly they just reaped the benefits of kicking the can further down the road without too much bitching by the non extremists. Sure, the governments may have "winked" at the activities of the settlers, but they clearly reaped the benefits of the cooperation. It kind of reminds me of how northern and southern settlers rushed into western territories in the pre civil war 19th century; the government encouraged this competition by a series of compromises and effectively stifled any backlash of the treatment of native americans by making it an us vs them competition. But I do agree with your and the article's assessment about Israel's lack of political will to settle the issue; FWIW, I think the US (and likely a lot of Europe, but I'll defer to those Europeans on this board) lacks that will as well to bring any pressure to bear on Israel.

[Bicycle Bill]

-"BB"-

[MajGenl.Meade]

8 of those green countries are not in the Middle East. They are in Africa.

Does that affect the number? It may not, but just asking

[BoSoxGal]

8 of those green countries are not in the Middle East. They are in Africa.

Does that affect the number? It may not, but just asking

That map appears to constitute MENA, the Middle East and North African region, a geographic category recognized by the UN and other international organizations as comprising the Arab world.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_ ... rth_Africa

[wesw]

i think that we should all support a fourth crusade , and install a eastern orthodox theocracy in the holy land!

who says aye!!!!!

[Burning Petard]

I am not in favor of any theocracy. The dictionary says that is a system of government where the priests rule. Any system that is run by God directly or by the non-religious seems to me to be superior. Priests have a pretty dismal record.

The Objectives of the current military adventure by the nation of Israel have been spelled out officially in the Wall Street Journal. [I leave it as an exercise for the student to determine why that particular news journal was picked to communicate these military goals to the rest of the world.]
But the third, to form a community of Palestinians that reject terroism, baffles me. I can find no objective data supporting the accomplishment of this goal by the such military action as is currently applied by Israel. Rather such tactics as is now used by Israel only motivates greater terroism.

The ways of patriotism seem only to be understood by that American philosopher, Samuel Clemens.

snailgate.

[Burning Petard]

I am beginning to understand the position of the leadership of the Israeli Defense Forces and the official leader of Israel. They have to destroy Gaza to coverup their own gross errors before the seventh of October.

I quote here a timeline published in the New York Times for the daily edition of October 8, 2023:

6:35 a.m. The first sirens warn of incoming rockets in central and southern Israel. This is the start of Hamas’s firing what will be thousands of rockets at Israel, striking even major cities like Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.
Muhammad Deif, the leader of the military wing of Hamas, said in a recorded message that the group had decided to launch what he called an “operation” so that “the enemy will understand that the time of their rampaging without accountability has ended.”
7:40 a.m. The Israel Defense Forces confirm that Hamas fighters have crossed from Gaza into southern Israel. The Israeli authorities ask residents of these towns, including Sderot, to hide in their homes.
8:15 a.m. The first sirens go off in Jerusalem, which rarely gets hit by rockets because of the Iron Dome defense system Israel uses. It was unclear if any rockets had struck the center of the contested city. But a witness said that rockets had landed in the wooded hills on the city’s western edge.

8:23 a.m. Nearly two hours after the first air raid sirens, the scale of the attacks is becoming clear. Hamas has taken hostages in southern Israel and fired wave after wave of rockets. Israel declares a state of alert for war, effectively calling up as many reservists as possible.

* * * [various air actions by Israel against Gaza]
12:21 p.m. The Israeli military sends troops to southern Israel to reclaim towns taken by Hamas militants. Israel estimates that Hamas has fired at least 2,200 rockets since the first sirens Saturday morning.

I had it ingrained into the deepest parts of my brain during basic training at Ft Leonard Wood in the summer of 1960 that the ultimate weapon is a man on the ground with a rifle in his hands The IDF knew at 7:40am that the enemy had boots on the ground inside Israel and they were killing. It took the IDF FOUR HOURS AND 41 MINUTES. to get a counter attack moving directly against the armed invasion. The asterisks above indicate items in this time line that referred to bomb and air attacks directly against Gaza which chose not to include. Clearly the military leadership for Israel focused its preparations on continued rocket and artillery attacks, giving a typical terrorist ground attack low priority. NOT EVEN ARMORED SCOUT CARS for a local rapid response force close to Gaza. I had assumed those had been in place around the entire border of Israel. On Jewish television I have watched many a discussion of the clear necessity of the nation of Israel to be on a constant state of war-time alertness because of the dedication of their political neighbors to the total destruction of Israel. -- long before October of 2023.

This state of preparedness [or lack there of] by the IDF is beyond my comprehension. Had they bought into the failed American theory of push-button warfare? Can anybody enlighten me?

snailgate.

[BoSoxGal]

Mehdi Hasan’s final MSNBC show 60 minute rant on Gaza; the numbers are horrifying.

https://x.com/MehdiHasanShow/status/174 ... 95865?s=20

[BoSoxGal]

More horrors in the West Bank: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... -mans-body


Nobody wants to talk about this I’m sure - I can barely stand to pay attention to the news myself. I don’t even know how to feel anymore about my lifelong championing of Israel.

[Sue U]

I have been watching the situation in Israel and the territories devolve for more than 25 years with particular acceleration over the last couple of years; I cannot even begin to tell you how depressing this has all been for me here in America since Oct. 7, and I can only imagine how horrific and traumatizing it must be for those living over there. I follow a number of Israeli news outlets and posters on the Twatter, and between the awfulness of the government and the brutality of the war and the violence of the religious extremists I honestly I don't know how people make it from day to day. I used to think about maybe retiring in Israel, but I think that's off the table now. Even thinking about what's going on there, in Gaza and in the West Bank just drains me.

[Burning Petard]

Sorry folks, but I see this as a prequal to what will become of the USaA republic as our national government devolves into greater polarization and tribalism. No compromise. No willingness to give a little to get a little. MTG is the model for the future. Civic education of American youth was an important issue for Justice O'Connor, but her foundation could only slow the trend toward ignorance.

The sad ignorance of President Trump and many others about the basics of the constitution is appalling to me.
I got into a discussion elsewhere because a major voice in the news industry could not distinguish between the Presidential line of succession and the President as Commander-inn-Chief and the chain of command.

And most people don't care. The people of Israel could not agree on an independent judiciary. Many people in the USofA cannot see that the 2nd amendment is absurd. If you look at the words, it applies only to a militia, or it is the only constitutional right with no limits [rights of the people,shall not be infringed. that includes felons, the insane and 100 year old senile blind men--they are all people] The 14th somehow has expired, or it is meaningless [let the voters decide]

Now the nation of Israel has duplicated their neighbors view -- the other side has no right to exist. Kill 'em all and let God sort it out.

And there is the little problem of global warning. Reminds me of the old skit from Al Sleet, the hippy, dippy weather man: There is a chance of a storm tomorrow, but I would not sweat it because radar shows a few hundred missiles headed our way from over the North Pole . . . Ellison's 'Boy and His Dog' may well be the future of civilization, not from atomic war, but from environmental degradation.

Pleasant dreams everybody. Snailgate.