It can’t be done accidentally

[Joe Guy]

Are we still allowed to say 'nauga'?

Oops!....

[Big RR]

[Burning Petard]

I fondly remember Tom & Ray's campaign to save the naugas. When every I have trapped one, I always shoot it with my faith ull Marble Game Getter.

snailgate.

[Scooter]

New poll:

In the face of evidence definitively refuting the claims he has made in this thread, the village idiot will:

1. admit that he was wrong
2. double down
3. say that it is an African conspiracy to rewrite history

[wesw]

there was this black feller who put red rocks and yeller rocks around the firepit...

then when the fellers were breaking camp, they all peed on the fire before they left to go hunting, because safety first .

then when they came back the next year and cleaned out the firepit....

iron!!!!!

or you can just dig it up out of certain swamps

[Joe Guy]

New poll:

In the face of evidence definitively refuting the claims he has made in this thread, the village idiot will:

1. admit that he was wrong
2. double down X
3. say that it is an African conspiracy to rewrite history

[rubato]

What an ignorant question.

Africa has a long history of iron working. In fact one of the reasons Damascus steel was so superior is the the refined iron came from africa to Damascus .

Yrs,
Rubato

[liberty]

there was this black feller who put red rocks and yeller rocks around the firepit...

then when the fellers were breaking camp, they all peed on the fire before they left to go hunting, because safety first .

then when they came back the next year and cleaned out the firepit....

iron!!!!!

Sorry Wes it can’t happen if one could build a campfire big enough to melt iron, which is not possible, it would cook the people sitting around it.

or you can just dig it up out of certain swamps

That’s also highly unlikely; it is very rare for iron to be found in its native form on the surface of the earth. Iron is a metal that reacts with oxygen to form iron oxide. Meteorites are not native iron since their origin in outer space where the metal is protected from corrosion by the vacuum of space. As far as I know, there’s only one source of native iron on Earth that is resistant to corrosion; it is an iron-chromium alloy that’s only found in Iceland, I believe. Even if a Stone Age person found a piece of iron in its native form it would have no significance; it would look like a strange rock and its only use would have been as a hammer stone for napping flint.

[MajGenl.Meade]

New poll:

In the face of evidence definitively refuting the claims he has made in this thread, the village idiot will:

1. admit that he was wrong
2. double down X
3. say that it is an African conspiracy to rewrite history

[liberty]

'Lib--"Truth"? Absent going back in time and observing it, there is no way to know most things for certain, only to accept what the evidence supports. And, absent serious scientific dispute, I am much more willing to accept the opinions of most archeologists about an iron age existing in sub-saharan Africa. Sure, there's always a few outliers, but most scholars believe that there was--people who are trained to interpret the evidence and people who have observed that evidence first-hand. I am perfectly content to accept their opinions as opposed to yours, Lib (just as I am with the conclusions about other iron ages among other cultures in Europe and Asia).

Not all archeologists agree. it’s the Proponent that get traction and those that don’t agree or silenced.

If you were a judge in this case, would you rule that the sub-Saharan Africans independently develop their own iron age. They had neither the means, motive, nor opportunity, so how could it be. They didn’t have furnaces why would they need them. Why would a stone age people need a furnace; it’s not like they needed to heat their homes. They didn’t have the motivation they had no knowledge that metal existed. Between work growing their crops, hunting game and gathering wild plants, I doubt they had much time left over for curiosity.

Iron metallurgy in Africa - Wikipedia

“Two reviews of the evidence from the mid-2000s found technical flaws in the studies claiming independent invention, raising three major issues.[21][8] The first was whether the material dated by radiocarbon was in secure archaeological association with iron-working residues. Many of the dates from Niger, for example, were on organic matter in potsherds that were lying on the ground surface together with iron objects. The second issue was the possible effect of "old carbon": wood or charcoal much older than the time at which iron was smelted. This is a particular problem in Niger, where the charred stumps of ancient trees are a potential source of charcoal, and have sometimes been misidentified as smelting furnaces. A third issue is the weaker precision of the radiocarbon method for dates between 800 and 400 BCE, attributable to irregular production of radiocarbon in the upper atmosphere. Unfortunately most radiocarbon dates for the initial spread of iron metallurgy in sub-Saharan Africa fall within this range.”

[MajGenl.Meade]

lib,

the plain thing (also the main thing) here is that some experts say X and others say Y - and no one here, least of all you, has the faintest clue as to which of these positions (or indeed, some other position) is correct.

We can't divine truth about iron forges in Africa - not because we don't like truth but because we don't f-ing well know a damn thing about it apart from reading what other people allegedly have said/determined/found/made up.

Now you may say that's your point about a poll - we get to say whether we agree with Xpert or Ypert. Which has bugger-all to do with "truth" - it's just whistling in the wind and it signifies nothing.

What is important in your survey here is that you are driven by an anti-black animus. It's obvious your purpose is to sneer at sub-saharan Africa from your little white throne of judgement. Now there's a truth we can all recognize.

[wesw]

all you need is a bit of a breeze and the fire is hot enough.

don t get all erudite with me mister

the natives in canadia did make blades from meteorites, two metiorites in fact..., the british promptly stole the rocks from them after learning of them.

and words only belong in red if they are supposed quotes of my lord and savior, dammit!!!!

you really don t have a leg to stand on here liberty

using big words ain t not no big deal in the grand scheme of things

i done forgot more books than i can shake a stick at.

and just so that you don t think i m picking on you, i ll give meade a gentle poke as well....

that out of africa theory seems whack to me, yo..., just sayin'......

[wesw]

bog iron is quite common around here....

it comes in little nodules in swamps, plenty of sulfur around the local swamps and microbes help to form the nodes

nassawango swamp is near me and pig iron was produced there in the colonial times

all you needed to make it was little nodules of the iron compound that were easily dug out of the swamp, a hot fire and a bit of a breeze, but o won t bellow on about it

[wesw]

meade is right. we don t know.

i have found that people who know everything are less intelligent than people who admit their own ignorance....

...but i may be wrong....

[Big RR]

Indeed, and there is rarely agreement among the so-called "experts" in any field; sure, some are ignored, but these are often the gadflies who stand and scream rather than present tangible evidence. I am more inclined to accept the opinion of a majority of the experts absent convincing evidence as to why I should not, but I do want to see the evidence presented in scholarly peer reviewed publications. Again, for most of what we claim to "know", the knowledge is just a consensus of the experts based on the evidence. I have never been to many places in the world and don't "know" that they exist, but I accept the evidence and the experts telling me they do. I guess I could always be the contrarian and say "there is no Australia", but I would first want to see some evidence of why the contrary experts believe the consensus is wrong. So, while I do not positively know we landed on the moon, I accept the consensus of the experts that we did; the same goes for an iron age in Africa, unless and until some experts present enough evidence to make me question the consensus.

[BoSoxGal]

Racism is a mental disorder.

[liberty]

Racism is a mental disorder.

Is it racist to not believe something when it is contrary to reason? Just because an expert tells me something doesn’t mean I’m going to believe it; I think for myself. I’m sorry but it’s a habit i got into, and it has been beneficial. My central air system went out; I called a repairman he told me I needed a new air conditioner. When I thought about what he told me it didn’t make sense, so I got a second opinion and saved $8000. It turned out I only needed a condenser coil, not an entire system. So, I will continue to think for myself.

As far as the independent African Iron Age is concerned, I am willing to be convinced. Paint me a believable scenario where it could have happened and I will change my mind, but I have not seen one yet. There is no question that Sub-Saharan Africans were making iron in ancient times, but that’s not the point, where did that knowledge come from; without a preceding metal age, it could not come from the local area. I will continue to believe it is not possible to discover ironmaking without previous knowledge of medals.

This is not the first time Afrocentric and African scholars have made claims like this that turned out to be wrong. Remember the black ancient Egypt controversy where they claimed that ancient Egypt was a black nation? In 2017 a DNA test proved that was wrong. But you didn’t need a DNA test to come to that conclusion; there was already plenty of evidence that existed, but it was simply dismissed by the proponents as racist.

[Joe Guy]

Focusing on the negative aspects of a people of a certain race is something that racists do.

[Scooter]

I really should play the ponies.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Is it racist to not believe something when it is contrary to reason?

No, it is not.

This is:

If the sub-Saharan Africans need things to make them feel better about themselves, a boost to their ego

And so is this:

This is not the first time Afrocentric and African scholars have made claims like this that turned out to be wrong

You just can't resist piling on "them" can you? According to you, if people don't agree with your views, they must be Afrocentric and (shock! horror! even worse!) "African".

And congrats to Scooter for naming in advance the two options lib chose plus the one he never could.