Do you believe in collective guilt?

[liberty]

This post is just about over anyway, but I feel an obligation to fix my error the best that I can. I have given others a chance present their comments and they have chosen not to; I could at any moment find I no longer have the time for this, so here goes. To best of my memory this is what I originally said:

Do you believe in collective guilt? I don’t and never have. When I was young I was an avid reader of editorials. I have always been interest in other people’s opinions whether I agree or not. I remember there was a widely held opinion that the German nation was responsible for the actions of the NAZI government. People that believe that don’t understand the power of totalitarian government, they have never known real fear and oppression.
______________________________________________________________________
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/whos-to-bl ... ack-woman/

A “recovering progressive” friend on Twitter apologized to me recently for the offensive behavior of fellow leftists who called in and left hateful messages at the headquarters of the conservative group FreedomWorks in Washington, D.C.
My response to the embarrassed liberal? “I don’t believe in collective guilt.”
This man did not need to apologize to me. He had done nothing wrong. The responsibility for the reprehensible behavior is squarely on the shoulders of the base, unimaginative, hate-spewing individuals who left the messages. Were they representative of the left generally? Well, you don’t see a great hue and the cry in the press today, do you? Had this situation been reversed, on the other hand …
But that’s not the point.
In a free society, an individual bears sole responsibility for his actions. A whole race, gender, or generation does not bear guilt for the sins of some or even of many in that group of people. It’s unfair and wrong.
But liberals don’t believe this. For example, a white person carries the shame of slavery even if his family members never owned slaves and even if he himself worked to free those in bondage. White equals guilt. Or, as another example, “society” is guilty for creating the psychosexual environment in which frustrated men must rape in order to feel dominant. And then there are the more mundane things like “if she weren’t poor, she wouldn’t be compelled to steal that Ralph Lauren dress.”
A criminal wouldn’t be a criminal if he were loved more and society supported him, therefore it’s society’s fault that he is committing the fill-in-the-blank crime.
So who is to blame, then, when a black man rapes a woman? Would it be the rapist? No.
What follows is the harrowing and cognitively dissonant account of a woman’s rape at the hands of a black man she considered a friend. Her name is Amanda Kijera and here is her story:
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Two weeks ago, on a Monday morning, I started to write what I thought was a very clever editorial about violence against women in Haiti. The case, I believed, was being overstated by women’s organizations in need of additional resources. Ever committed to preserving the dignity of black men in a world which constantly stereotypes them as violent savages, I viewed this writing as yet one more opportunity to fight “the man” on behalf of my brothers. That night, before I could finish the piece, I was held on a rooftop in Haiti and raped repeatedly by one of the very men who I had spent the bulk of my life advocating for.
It hurt. The experience was almost more than I could bear. I begged him to stop. Afraid he would kill me, I pleaded with him to honor my commitment to Haiti, to him as a brother in the mutual struggle for an end to our common oppression, but to no avail. He didn’t care that I was a Malcolm X scholar. He told me to shut up, and then slapped me in the face. Overpowered, I gave up fighting halfway through the night.

Truly, I have witnessed as a journalist and human rights advocate the many injustices inflicted upon black men in this world. The pain, trauma and rage born of exploitation are terrors that I have grappled with every day of my life. They make one want to strike back, to fight rabidly for what is left of their personal dignity in the wake of such things. Black men have every right to the anger they feel in response to their position in the global hierarchy, but their anger is misdirected.
Women are not the source of their oppression; oppressive policies and the as-yet unaddressed white patriarchy which still dominates the global stage are. Because women — and particularly women of color — are forced to bear the brunt of the black male response to the black male plight, the international community and those nations who have benefited from the oppression of colonized peoples have a responsibility to provide women with the protection that they need.

______________________(I hope that makes it more clear)_____________

How is it possible, after being the victim of a brutal rape, to absolve the perpetrator of guilt and point the finger at men of another color who are nowhere near one’s body? This projection is absolutely stunning and self-defeating.
The man who committed this crime committed it for his reason and his alone. Without holding him to account, what hope of change is there? If a person cannot own his behavior, he cannot change it.
This sort of rationalization would absolve white slave owners, by the way. They were simply victims of cultural thinking at the time. And the patriarchy? A remnant of twisted religious extremism.
No one would be responsible for any action at any time, anywhere. There is, after all, a context for every crime.
At the root of this absolution is a desire to push personal responsibility on the collective. Unfortunately, the collective was not in that room that night. One man raped one woman.
He alone is responsible. Excusing his behavior is a moral travesty. A society unravels when evil cannot be named and shamed.
Forget collective guilt. It is a collective shame that this sort of thinking permeates liberal thought. This belief in action will utterly destroy society should it go unchallenged.

[Scooter]

Straw men are just so much fun to knock down, aren't they?

[liberty]

Straw men are just so much fun to knock down, aren't they?

You are assuming that no one here believe in collective guilt. That is yet to be seen, I learned a long time ago not prejudge people because at times they will surprise you. I remember reading in different forums the opinion that the German people were guilt for what the Nazi did to the Jews and others; such people don’t understand the power totalitarian government. They have never experience oppression and genuine fear.

[Timster]

WTF? No. Bitch. Fuck you. Oh. No Period. simpleton...

Ugly. In your face Spam gets DELETED around these here parts. I don't make the Rules Cunt.

But I still call you a Cunt for your deliberately PERNICIOUS WAYS; because I live under the same rules!

I REALLY DISLIKE YOUR "Rabble rousing Fascist oops racists \ways."

I am NOT sorry that you rub My fur the wrong way.

BECAUSE; individuals such as yourself will eventually encounter the WALL.

What is that? PWNED he may ask;?

That my friend is when an Obvious to everyone other than yourself that you are indeed a racist dickweed ; and that you by default must suck my Dick. Bitch. Fuck You and the attitude that you rode in on.

Now.

Stop it.


OR... Suffer the wrath of my unwarranted sarcasm again

[Lord Jim]

[BoSoxGal]

Your post is f'd up so much (margins) as to be unreadable on my device. Given the reaction thus far, I'm guessing I'm not missing much.

[Timster]

Actually? I believe in the fact and concept of "Collective Guilt" BSG. It seems to be a Reality in certain individual's lives. Due to whatever...

I don't necessarily condone it; However it seems to be an effective weapon... for some... !SWAT! . . .And then again? Some individuals seem impervious to indoctrination. And they frustrate the shit out of some people. So befit. And yet So bitten...

Love concurs* All.

Simple statement. [*Pun intended.}

Yet means the World.

Tim- Case in point. -ster

[Timster]

Cryptic enough?

[Scooter]

Straw men are just so much fun to knock down, aren't they?

You are assuming that no one here believe in collective guilt.

No, I read the way in which the author of the piece so cheesily framed the opposing argument so as to be able to attack it easily.

It's the way intellectually vacuous people argue.

I guess that's what attracted you to it.

[liberty]

WTF? No. Bitch. Fuck you. Oh. No Period. simpleton...

Ugly. In your face Spam gets DELETED around these here parts. I don't make the Rules Cunt.

But I still call you a Cunt for your deliberately PERNICIOUS WAYS; because I live under the same rules!

I REALLY DISLIKE YOUR "Rabble rousing Fascist oops racists \ways."

I am NOT sorry that you rub My fur the wrong way.

BECAUSE; individuals such as yourself will eventually encounter the WALL.

What is that? PWNED he may ask;?

That my friend is when an Obvious to everyone other than yourself that you are indeed a racist dickweed ; and that you by default must suck my Dick. Bitch. Fuck You and the attitude that you rode in on.

Now.

Stop it.


OR... Suffer the wrath of my unwarranted sarcasm again

Ivan Pavlov would have been so proud of you. After all he was famous for his study of canines, well not quite but close enough.

[Scooter]

And the 747 goes whoosh, right over his head yet once more.

[liberty]

Straw men are just so much fun to knock down, aren't they?

You are assuming that no one here believe in collective guilt.

No, I read the way in which the author of the piece so cheesily framed the opposing argument so as to be able to attack it easily.

It's the way intellectually vacuous people argue.

I guess that's what attracted you to it.

You and Tim could have conspired to make you the good cop by comparison; you sound pretty reasonable. But never mind let’s look at the author’s comments. He basically said this: People are responsible for their own actions and to hold any other person or group responsible is not only useless but destructive. Why should a rapist stop raping if he is not punished for his crime? And, I found the attitude of the Haitian woman incomprehensible. What kind thinking would lead her to blame white people of the world for a rape committed by a black. If you were raped would you have a similar attitude?

[Scooter]

The author of the piece did not understand the point the Haitian woman was making, and neither do you, and so both of you chose to distorit it to mean something else entirely rather than address what she actually said. Likewise, who among these "liberals" you both claim believe in collective guilt have said that those who actually perpetrate crimes should not be punished for them?

Textbook straw man argumentation from both of you. Not worth the time of anyone with more brain cells than a turnip.

[Guinevere]

First of all, you deleted your original opening comments to the piece. You know YOUR WORDS which you started with. Given that, I'm far less inclined to even respond. But let me say this:

The U.S. Constitution does not make any broadly sweeping statements about "corruption of blood" being illegal and thus standing for the concept of personal responsibllity (over the collective responsibility) in all things. The Constitution, in Article Three (which creates the judicial system), Section Three (regarding Treason) states: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted. (emphasis, mine).

Which simply means that there is no hereditary liability or other punishment for treason, family members of those who were convicted for treason were not to be considered treasonous by virture of the familial relationship, and any property forfeit by reason of treason is to be returned to the heirs after the person convicted of treason dies. This was in direct contrast to the English system, which for centuries assigned the weight of treason of the families and heirs -- even, in some instances, executing them for their relative's acts.

[liberty]

Your post is f'd up so much (margins) as to be unreadable on my device. Given the reaction thus far, I'm guessing I'm not missing much.

BSG, is right I could have made it more clear; in the post that I refereed to the author refers to comments made by a social worker and Haitian woman concerning the man that rapped her. I have inserted a space and line to separate the two sections.

[Guinevere]

Which still fails to address why you DELETED your own comments.

[Timster]

See above, Guin...

[Guinevere]

Timster, that's not it. Prior to the article, in his original, unedited post, Lib included his own thoughts and comments on the subject, including the statement I referenced and addressed above about "corruption of blood." It was at least four sentences long, perhaps longer, I can't remember because I read it early this morning and when I came back to comment specifically on those words, they were gone. Edited out. Lib apparently isn't acknowledging his deletion, but I know what I read.

[@meric@nwom@n]

I believe in chocolate.

[Lord Jim]

Timster, that's not it. Prior to the article, in his original, unedited post, Lib included his own thoughts and comments on the subject, including the statement I referenced and addressed above about "corruption of blood." It was at least four sentences long, perhaps longer, I can't remember because I read it early this morning and when I came back to comment specifically on those words, they were gone. Edited out. Lib apparently isn't acknowledging his deletion, but I know what I read.

I also recall reading that last night. He's replaced his original comments with a response to something BSG said later.