Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

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Miles
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Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by Miles »

Do you only obey those laws that you agree with or do you follow them because they are the law?

I have come to a conclusion that for the most part people ignore many laws because the authorities fail to enforce them. An example. Today I was driving in the rain. Here in Pennsylvania there is a law that requires a driver to have headlights, not running lights, and tail lights on whenever windshield wipers are needed. I noticed the majority of vehicles did not. Keep in mind this is just an example and not some paranoia of mine.

During this time I observed one state trooper and two township officers parked in different places watching traffic. Yes I understand it's raining, but is that a reason not to enforce the law?
I expect to go straight to hell...........at least I won't have to spend time making new friends.

Big RR
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by Big RR »

Not necessarily only laws I agree with, but I think there are some laws I would not follow, including laws which could harm others if I complied (like the classic example of nazis asking me to tell them where the jews are hiding), to laws which I find personally offensive (like a law restricitng what I can or cannot read or which restrict sharing of ideas), to minor laws/regulations which are not enforced (like parking or speeding, e.g.). Now, I would think if I am caught disobeying a law, even one I find morally regugnant (the first two categories), I could be punished by the authorities for breaking it (although I don't necessarily think resisting that punishment is wrong), but in those cases the disobedience to the civil authority is not only justifiable but, IMHO, an imperative. For that third category, practicality often dictates that the unenforced regulation should be ignored, although occasionally you have to pay a bribe 9better known as a fine) for that privilege.

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Gob
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by Gob »

Interesting question Miles!

I have a cavalier attitude to petty laws, but don't like being caught breaking them. For short journey's, say back from the local shop, I'll often not bother putting my seatbelt back on. When I'm on my motorbike, I consider the speed limit on open roads to be"how fast do I feel safe at?"

I'll try to think of more....
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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dales
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by dales »

I've broken many motor vehicle laws.

One in particular:

In CA one must NEVER exceed the posted limit or the prima facie speed limit (road and weather conditions) limit when overtaking.

I like to overtake quickly as to not hold up others or staying in another's blind spot.

If drivers do that to me I get royally pissed! :arg

The drug laws I have broken numerous times....that's a different story.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

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Gob
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by Gob »

Ah, drug laws, yes, never been too compliant with them :D
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

Simpson5215
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by Simpson5215 »

I seem to have Murhy law syndrome when I drive or I really look like a middle aged hardend criminal :)

Pulled over for not displaying front license plate (car did not have a place to install it) $120.00, drilled holes in front bumper to install.
Pulled over license plate light burnt out $65.00.
Pulled over middle break light burnt out $100.00.
So new law comes out about headlights on in the rain I obey it. What happens got home yesterday forgot to turn lights off dead battery this morning :D

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The Hen
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by The Hen »

Always comply with the piddly little laws. That way if you have to break a big one, no one will suspect you.

:mrgreen:
Bah!

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kristina
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by kristina »

The Hen wrote:Always comply with the piddly little laws. That way if you have to break a big one, no one will suspect you.

:mrgreen:

It's always worked for me, although my lawbreaking days are mostly behind me... ;)

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Guinevere
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by Guinevere »

I obey the laws because that's what an ordered society expects and demands. Not to mention that as an officer of the court, I try to hold myself up to the highest standards (but I do speed at times, I admit).

Gob, do you wear a helmet on your bike, or hanggliding? If so, why wouldn't you buckle your seat belt? It's not about rule breaking, its about doing the very simple things that can keep you from becoming a vegetable if you are in an accident (and yes, many accidents do occur in that short ride down the street).
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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The Hen
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by The Hen »

Thank you Guin. I tell him this often. I drive him mad. We tend to stick to the rules 'round here and Gob was a bit surprised when he first came over.

(I think it had something to do with convict stock and all that.)
Bah!

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Guinevere
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by Guinevere »

You're welcome Hen. I'm a terrible pedant and nag about a very few things -- seat belts and bike helmets being two of them. My triathlete friends have a name for people who don't wear bike helmets: organ donors. I apply that equally to those who do not wear seat belts.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

Big RR
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by Big RR »

Guin--which is why bike helmets and seat belt use are a good diea--the question is, should they be te law? You (and I for that matter) probably (statically) endanger more lives by speeding than gob does by not wearing a seat belt. IMHO, laws like the seat belt law, designed to protect ourselves from our own foolishness, do far more harm than good in that they breed contempt for the law in many.

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Crackpot
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by Crackpot »

I've got into the habit lately if not always buckling my seatbelt. Mostly when I drive my wifes car and don't want to adjust the seat or stretch the belt.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

@meric@nwom@n

Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by @meric@nwom@n »

If it weren't for laws and ramifications and fear for my immortal soul I would have a layer of dead folks around me at work some days.

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Guinevere
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by Guinevere »

BigRR, I've got no problems legislating simple easy fixes that can save lives when it is something like a seat belt or a helmet (and in my statements above I was referring to bike = bicycle helmets, which typically are not mandatory) not motorcycle helmets, although the same rationale applies.

Do those law breed contempt for the law? No more than speeding or any other regulatory type law does. I'd still have them.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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Gob
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by Gob »

Guinevere wrote:
Gob, do you wear a helmet on your bike,
Only because it's too easy to spot if you are not wearing one

or hanggliding?
Often fly without one.
It's not about rule breaking, its about doing the very simple things that can keep you from becoming a vegetable if you are in an accident (and yes, many accidents do occur in that short ride down the street).
I also solo climb without ropes or helmet.

I know, but hey, let me live dangerously for five mins eh? :)
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

Big RR
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by Big RR »

Guinevere wrote:BigRR, I've got no problems legislating simple easy fixes that can save lives when it is something like a seat belt or a helmet (and in my statements above I was referring to bike = bicycle helmets, which typically are not mandatory) not motorcycle helmets, although the same rationale applies.

Do those law breed contempt for the law? No more than speeding or any other regulatory type law does. I'd still have them.
Well that's where I disagree; IMHO, the purpose of the law is to protect us from the negligient and/or malicious conduct of others, not ourselves. And when the law makes that jump, I think it does breed contempt. There are so many laws which could save lives by regulating personal conduct that affects no one else, from prohibition of alcohol (we all know how well that went in the US) to getting mandatory doctor checkups and exercise, to having one's diet closely montored, etc., but people will disobey them over and over again. I recall that I always wore my seat belt until the law madating it passed in my state; immediately afterwards I refused to wear it, going to the point of buying one of those "Cheat-belt" shirts with the diagonal stripe. It infriated me that some idiots in the legilature weretelling me what to do with my own body (kind of like abortion in a way); after about 5 years I finally realized it was still a good idea to wear one and aquiesced, but I had a lot less respect for the laws in general.

Indeed, IMHO, laws should be a last resort to protect us from the actions of others; any governing body should lead by example and education first. Wearing seatbelts (or motorcycle or bicycle helmets) are a good idea and it is in your interest to use them. If you choose not to, why should the lawstep in and force it? I frequently ski and have never used a helmet; I avoid places that mandate them (although I made my kids wear them when they were younger--regulation of those too young (or mentally incompetent) to decide for themselves is perfectly fine with me), and I would probably not ski if they were mandated by law. Not that I have anything against hemets per se, I might well wear one if I chose to ski tougher terrain or ski more aggressively, it's that I think I should have the right to decide, not some self important legislator or officious bureaucrat.

Speeding? Certainly it can be arbitrary, or a blatant fundraising attempt by a town, but I think most of us realize that the way we drive can have a direct affect on others who encounter us on the road.

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Scooter
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by Scooter »

Sorry, these stats are a few years out of date, but I remembered having them handy...

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration:

42,800 people died in traffic fatalities in 2004.

They estimate that seat belts are 50% effective at preventing fatalities in accidents where people would have died otherwise. From 1975 to 2002, they estimated that seat belts saved 164,753 lives. In 2003 they estimated that seat belts saved 14,903 lives. They further estimated that an additional 6,081 lives could have been saved in 2003 if everyone over the age of four who rode in passenger vehicles used seat belts.

For every percentage point increase in seat belt use, 1.8 million additional people buckle up and 270 lives are saved. Is the inconvenience of having 1.8 million people buckle up worth 270 lives (aside from the direct economic cost)?

They estimate that traffic accidents cost $230.6 billion per year, or $820 per person. I didn't see any economic numbers that were specific to failure to use seat belts, but they did a study in 2000 which estimated the savings from seat belt use since 1975 at $585 billion in direct economic costs (medical, lost productivity, other injury-related costs).

So yes, selt belt laws are a means of protecting people from their own stupidity. So is a lot of safety regulation. But they also protect the rest of us from a substantial burden which the terminally stupid would impose on us by their recklessness.

I recognize the slippery slope of couching the argument in terms of lives saved or economics, that could also apply to a lot of . But in this case the benefits are so huge, and in return we have given up an inconsequential freedom There is nothing that can't be done while wearing a sear belt that anyone has any business doing in a moving ffw
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Big RR
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by Big RR »

So yes, selt belt laws are a means of protecting people from their own stupidity. So is a lot of safety regulation.
No, the majority of safety regulations save us from the stupidty of others--very few laws are enacted to protect us from ourselves.
I recognize the slippery slope of couching the argument in terms of lives saved or economics, that could also apply to a lot of . But in this case the benefits are so huge, and in return we have given up an inconsequential freedom
Well, you may be willing to accept the economic justification, i am not, ever. I'm sure many would agree with you, but IMHO freedom must include the freedom to be stupid, if we are only free to do what others believe is in our own (and their economic) interest, we are not free at all.

Andrew D
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Re: Do you obey the law because it is the law....or

Post by Andrew D »

dales wrote: In CA one must NEVER exceed the posted limit or the prima facie speed limit (road and weather conditions) limit when overtaking.
Where did you get that idea? First off, the prima facie speed limit is the posted speed limit. Road conditions, weather conditions, and so forth are things which make the actual speed limit different from the posted (prima facie) speed limit.

Second, and more important, California's Basic Speed Law, which trumps all posted speed limits, prohibits driving at a speed which is unsafe under the circumstances. It conspicuously does not say only that it is illegal to drive "faster" than is safe under the circumstances; it prohibits driving slower than is safe just as much as it prohibits driving faster than is safe. So if under the particular circumstances, the only safe thing to do is to exceed the posted speed limit, California law not only permits but requires a driver to exceed the posted speed limit.
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