Firemen in deep water.

[Gob]

A charity shop worker drowned in a shallow lake after firemen refused to help for health and safety reasons, an inquest heard today.

Simon Burgess, 41, toppled into the three foot deep water while feeding the swans.

Even when a police officer who had arrived at the scene waded into the water, he was ordered back.



And a witness told the inquest that firemen said they were not allowed into water that was more than 'ankle-deep'.

Gillian Hughes, 53, said 'you're having a laugh' when firefighters said they could not rescue Mr Burgess. A fireman responded: 'no, that's health and safety'.

Instead they waited for a specialist rescue team and Mr Burgess was only taken out of the lake 28 minutes after the alarm was raised in Gosport, Hampshire.



He is thought to have suffered an epileptic fit at around the time he fell into the water. Although he was rushed to hospital he later died.

The lake's depth is one-and-a-half feet (0.5m) at the edges and up to three feet (1m) in the centre. It is 182 feet wide and 333 long.

Ms Hughes told the inquest she phoned emergency services and begged for them to rescue Mr Burgess when they arrived.

She said: 'I was feeding the ducks with my grandson, sister, and brother when we noticed the man smiling and throwing bread to the swans.

'He was feeding them from a plastic bag, which blew into the lake and he tried to slap the bag back (towards him) with a plastic lid.

'The next minute I noticed he was in the water and I shouted for him to get out, I said "You're not allowed in there".

'He looked like he was swimming and had a smile on his face. The next minute he had stopped and was lying face down.'

She added that she did not get in herself because she did not know Mr Burgess' state of mind so feared he may have attacked.

Ms Hughes added: 'The firemen arrived with the police and I said "he's only been there five or ten minutes so if you hurry you might save him".

'He just said "we're not allowed" and I said "but that's your job".

'I said "you've got a pole on your truck, use that," but there was no explanation.

'Mr Burgess was only 20ft away, I thought they would get him straight away.

'I believe one of the police went in to get him but was told he was not allowed. 'I said to one of the firemen why don't you go in and he said they couldn't if the water was higher than ankle-deep.

'I said "you're having a laugh". He said "no, that's health and safety".'

Watch manager Tony Nicholls, from Gosport Fire Station, arrived at the model boating lake about three minutes after emergency services were called.

He told the inquest: 'The witnesses told me the body had been in the water for five or ten minutes.

'There were no obvious signs of life so from that I made an assessment it was a body retrieval and not a rescue.

DELAY 'MAY HAVE COST CHARITY WORKER HIS LIFE'

Although fire crews were sent almost immediately it was 35 minutes before Simon Burgess was recovered from the water.

Registrar Dr Bret Lockyer said if he had been pulled out sooner there was a 'slim chance' he could have been saved.

The timeline on March 10 was as follows:

12.17pm: Gillian Hughes rings the Hampshire Fire and Rescue Service control room and speaks to Deborah Coles, the control room manager.

12.18pm: Fire engine, water rescue trained crew and a water support unit are sent. Police, ambulance and coastguard are also dispatched.

12.20pm: Fire crews arrive.

12.25pm: They report to their control room a male is floating down in the water. Around this time, Gillian Hughes says they refused to go into the water.

12.31pm: The water support unit arrive.

12.46pm: They request that the press officer attends the scene.

12.52pm: Firefighters report to their control room that Simon Burgess is recovered from the water.

12.58pm: He is taken to hospital.

1.42pm: He is formally pronounced dead.

'The officers were trained to go into ankle deep water, which is level one, so we waited for level two officers, who can go into chest high.

'On of the police officers told me he would like to go in the water and I advised him in the strongest terms not to.

'A paramedic told me he was level 2 water trained, but when I asked him if he had protective equipment he said no so that was the end of that.

'I was under immense pressure from the three witnesses to go into the water but I gave them a short answer.

'The specialist team arrived and three officers went in and removed the body.'

By the time firefighters arrived who were allowed to rescue the drowning man he had floated across the lake.

Dr Bret Lockyer, speciality registrar of histopathology, told the inquest that if Mr Burgess had been pulled out of the lake at Walpole Park sooner he may have been saved.

'If he had been taken out of the water after 10 minutes there is a slim chance he could've been resuscitated,' he said.

'It is a slim chance, obviously, the shorter amount of time he was in the water, the more chance he had of surviving.

'There was water in his lungs to suggest he died from drowning and he had a laceration on his tongue.

'It seems he had a seizure either before or while he fell into the water.'

Hampshire Fire and Rescue control room manager Deborah Coles said that she took the call at 12.17pm on March 10 last year - and sent water rescue trained crew within a minute.

However, although the first crew arrived at 12.20pm, the water rescue team did not get there until 12.31pm.

It was not until 12.52pm that he was recovered and 12.58pm that he was taken to hospital.

The hearing at Portsmouth Coroner's Court continues.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1n3KrdDyq

[Lord Jim]

Absolute madness.

[Gob]

Yah think?

[Rick]

If it was only 3 feet deep why didn't he just stand up?

[Scooter]

He is thought to have suffered an epileptic fit at around the time he fell into the water.

[Rick]

He is thought to have suffered an epileptic fit at around the time he fell into the water.

Guess it was to obvious way up there at the top, thanks...

[loCAtek]

While Yanks go to lengths to just save a dog;



Charlie in good health today;

[liberty]

There were people watching why didn’t they do something; where they afraid of arrest?

[dgs49]

It's clear to me (play on words intended) that the "first responders" were not aware that the water was only three feet deep.

Thinking they might be getting in over their heads (literally) with maybe 25 kilos of equipment on their backs, they prudently demurred.

Firefighters, by definition, are prepared to place themselves at mortal risk to save humans in danger, but that doesn't compel undertaking a possibly suicidal mission, when other specialists are trained for that very mission.

They didn't know the lake was that shallow.

Clearly.

[rubato]

"...
Ms Hughes told the inquest she phoned emergency services and begged for them to rescue Mr Burgess when they arrived.

She said: 'I was feeding the ducks with my grandson, sister, and brother when we noticed the man smiling and throwing bread to the swans.

'He was feeding them from a plastic bag, which blew into the lake and he tried to slap the bag back (towards him) with a plastic lid.

'The next minute I noticed he was in the water and I shouted for him to get out, I said "You're not allowed in there".

'He looked like he was swimming and had a smile on his face. The next minute he had stopped and was lying face down.'

She added that she did not get in herself because she did not know Mr Burgess' state of mind so feared he may have attacked.
... "

Good at making excuses for herself. Bad at doing anything useful.

yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

It's clear to me (play on words intended) that the "first responders" were not aware that the water was only three feet deep.

Thinking they might be getting in over their heads (literally) with maybe 25 kilos of equipment on their backs, they prudently demurred.

One would hope that firemen would have the sense not to go in with the kit on their back, and to be able to test the depth of the water as they proceeded, oh, and the guts to not stand back and do nothing.

[dales]

Back to all stories



Police & Firemen Look On As Man Drowns Off CA Coast


Rescuer workers are paid to save lives. But now fire and police personnel in Alameda, California are struggling to explain why they let a man drown on Monday.

It’s a strange case. Here’s what we know for sure: The drowning victim, 53-year-old Raymond Zack, was apparently suicidal, according to a report from the scene. He waded out about 150 yards into cold waters off Crown Beach in Alameda and took about an hour to drown himself.

Police and fire units were on hand at the scene but did nothing. Instead of attempting a rescue, police and fireman stood on the shoreline and watched with a crowd of about 75 people that had gathered.

Further confounding things, after the man had died, rescue workers didn’t even go into the surf to recruit Zack’s body. Instead they recruited a passer-by to do it for them.

Here’s where the mess begins. Rescue workers are claiming they didn’t have the proper water certifications to perform the rescue and if they had they would have been open to a lawsuit. “We’re not trained to go into the water, obviously the type of gear that we have on, we don’t have the type of equipment that you would use to go into the water,” Alameda Police Lt. Joe McNiff said, reports ABC7.

The water was too shallow for the Coast Guard boats, and their rescue helicopter was on another call.

City officials, however, are sticking to the story that budget cuts are to blame. Fire officials are beginning to look into why Alameda, an island city near Oakland, does not have the ability to save people in danger in the water.

“Well, if I was off duty I would know what I would do, but I think you’re asking me my on-duty response and I would have to stay within our policies and procedures because that’s what’s required by our department to do,” Alameda Fire Div. Chief Ricci Zombeck said when asked by ABC7 if he would enter the water to save a drowning child.

Is this what regulations, litigations and budget cuts have done to the simple act of saving a man’s life? Granted, by all indications the man was trying to commit suicide, so mission accomplished on that end. But what if the person was simply a normal man drowning? What if it was a small child? Aren’t the same restrictions in play? If you answer the call of being a rescue worker, how can you in good faith stand idly by as a man dies? Isn’t this not only against a code of public safety officials but against whatever moral code to which you subscribe? That’s truly baffling.

How does that make any sense in any society? There’s really no solid, concrete explanation to justify their actions. At the end of the day, budget cuts and lawsuits and regulations can easily be ignored by the powers that be under the auspices of saving a man’s life.

[Gob]

Ah, not just the UK where "having a certificate" outweighs a human life then.

[dales]

Insane, is it not?

[Gob]

It reminds me of the time I was told in a health and safety lecture, that if any person trips while I am on hospital property, I am not allowed to try to save them. I asked the pencil neck telling ups these things;
"So if some elderly frail person trips in front of me, I am not allowed to catch them and save them from injury or possible death?"
"That's right," he replied.
"My parents brought me up better than that." I told him.
He at least had the decency to look embarrassed.

[Jarlaxle]

Absolute madness.

I would actually call it murder.

[dgs49]

I would not walk 150 yards into cold surf to try to save someone who was attempting to commit suicide. It would be quite possible that both of us would end up dead.

Someone who was struggling to survive, maybe.

[dales]

I would not walk 150 yards into cold surf to try to save someone who was attempting to commit suicide. It would be quite possible that both of us would end up dead.

Someone who was struggling to survive, maybe.

Perhaps not, but the Alameda Fire Dept. caught HELL for this!

[Gob]

I would not walk 150 yards into cold surf to try to save someone who was attempting to commit suicide. It would be quite possible that both of us would end up dead.

Someone who was struggling to survive, maybe.

It's very hard to tell the difference sometimes.

[liberty]

I would not walk 150 yards into cold surf to try to save someone who was attempting to commit suicide. It would be quite possible that both of us would end up dead.

Someone who was struggling to survive, maybe.

It's very hard to tell the difference sometimes.

I was thinking the same thing. How could you tell? Perhaps if you saw him trying to dunk their own head under the water that might be an indication, unless his name is Mr. Bean.