Arizona Does it Again

[Big RR]

So now on to phase 2 of operation get the hispaics; deny birth certificates to children of illegal aliens born here:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/15/arizon ... tml?hpt=T2

What right a state has to deny a birth certificate, or dspute the citizenship, of a natural born citizen of the USA is beyond me. That's the province of the federal, not the state government. I doubt it would hold up in court; but in the meantime, I'd avoid Arizona if you even knew a hispanic. What's next, shipping them off to concentration camps? Fascism is alive and well in the US.

[Gob]

- A proposed Arizona law would deny birth certificates to children born in the United States to illegal immigrant parents.

The bill comes on the heels of Arizona passing the nation's toughest immigration law.

John Kavanagh, a Republican state representative from Arizona who supports the proposed law aimed at so-called "anchor babies," said that the concept does not conflict with the U.S. Constitution.

"If you go back to the original intent of the drafters ... it was never intended to bestow citizenship upon (illegal) aliens," said Kavanagh, who also supported Senate Bill 1070 -- the law that gave Arizona authorities expanded immigration enforcement powers.

Under federal law, children born in the United States are automatically granted citizenship, regardless of their parents' residency status.

I can see some sense in that proposal. Harsh as it may seem, no baby should be born just to get a parent citizenship.

[Scooter]

Nevertheless, the babies are guaranteed citizenship by the 14th Amendment. Perhaps someone should draft legislation that strips citizenship from those who voted for this blatantly unconstitutional garbage.

I am not one to use Nazi/Fascist analogies likely, but I am unaware of any other regimes who have treated their natural-born citizens this way.

[@meric@nwom@n]

It is time to amend the amendment. The amendment was not intended with anchor babies in mind.
Time to change it.

[Lord Jim]

I'm inclined to agree with @W on this one....

As for the Arizona illegal alien law, (the one that directs the state and local authorities to enforce the federal laws that the feds have refused to enforce) it has generated the worst misinformation and dishonest, demagogic hysteria since the California Teacher's Association tried to claim that a school voucher system would lead to witch's covens running schools...

It's obvious why lefty organizations like La Rasa are deliberately lying about the law and what it allows...they're using this unprincipled scare tactic in order to raise money and recruit new members.

However those who are closest to the situation aren't falling for this "If you look Hispanic, they can throw you in jail for walking down the street" garbage. In Arizona, even a majority of Democrats support the law.

[Andrew D]

Perhaps the children of illegal aliens could be determined not to be fully "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States and, therefore, not guaranteed citizenship by the Fourteenth Amendment.

After all, American Indians are not guaranteed citizenship by the Fourteenth Amendment. (All American Indians born in the US are US citizens from birth, but that is by virtue of statute not by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment -- they are citizens not because the Constitution says so but because Congress has said so.)

If people whose ancestors were here before the ancestors of any of the rest of us can be determined not to be citizens by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment despite having been born here, then surely people whose parents never had any right to be here in the first place can also be determined not to be citizens by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.

[Scooter]

It is time to amend the amendment. The amendment was not intended with anchor babies in mind. Time to change it.

There is nothing that requires them to become "anchor babies". Their parents should know the consequences: if the child stays in the U.S., it will be without them, and the child will be placed with relatives who are legal residents or will be put in the system; otherwise, the parents can choose to take the child with them when they are deported, in which case the child can return anytime if a suitable guardian can be found, or when he/she comes of age, but the parents, having been forcibly deported, can never return.

Existing law is sufficient to prevent these children from becoming "anchor babies"; there is no need to circumvent the 14th Amendment to do it, because there is no telling where that road might lead.

[loCAtek]

No. You're a citizen of the country you were born in; that's what all the Brouhaha about Obama is about. (sort-of) While Mexicans do make anchor babies, this is really discrimination against Hispanics. My Gran'po was a child born like that, but it's not as popular or effective anymore with all the new immigration laws. This plays on a myth.

[@meric@nwom@n]

No. You're a citizen of the country you were born in; that's what all the Brouhaha about Obama is about. (sort-of) While Mexicans do make anchor babies, this is really discrimination against Hispanics. My Gran'po was a child born like that, but it's not as popular or effective anymore with all the new immigration laws. This plays on a myth.

Oh horse shit. These people are breaking the law and will continue to do so in greater numbers as the babies continue to receive citizenship. The government is reluctant to send people back who have babies here and I think breaking families up over this is pretty repugnant. Thus the term "anchor". Having these babies here has been successful in keeping illegals here.

For the record my son-in-law is %100 Mexican/American from a Mexican family that has been here a couple of generations. I don't stand in his face telling him he and his family need deporting since in coming here years ago they broke no laws. No where have I seen anyone who thinks illegals are illegal saying people who have legal citizenship should be harassed.

[Big RR]

Andrew--as i recall, there are many USSC cases, dating back to the late 19th century, that have ruled children of illegal immigrants born here are citizens, and have suggested (at least) that this birthright is in accordance with the 14th amendment. Yes, Native Americans have been treated differently, but as i recall many of these cases turned on whether the reservation was part of the USA and if those on the reservation were subject to the jurisdiction of the US; it was more the legal fiction that the Native Americans were citizens of different nations, than any decision on the applicability of the 14th amendment. But, regardless, I think the US osition right now is that the children of illegal immigrants born here are citizens, and no state has the right to change that, or to deny them equal protection. Any debate about this must be on the national level, and not within the provincial borders of a single state.

@W--successful in keeping the ilegal parents here? Not from what I have heard. Many parents have been deported and the citizen children have the choice to leave with them or remian with relatives.

No where have I seen anyone who thinks illegals are illegal saying people who have legal citizenship should be harassed.

that's just what this law is doing in denying the so-called anchor children the proof of their citzenship and then saying they can be deported unless they can prove they are legally here (by the earlier law). the state of Arizona has absolutely no right to determine who is or is not a citizens of the USA, or to impose additional requirements for obtaining citizenship (like making certain your parents were here legally).

[Lord Jim]

Big RR, you raised an issue in the thread you started on this topic in the CSB, that I think it has merit and deserves to be discussed, so I'm going to respond to it here....(Because I'm no longer posting at the CSB...and I see Steve is gearing up to push your thread off yet another MOTU cliff anyway)

You said:

But I think the biggest problem of that law is the wedge it drives between the police and the hispanic community in general. Police are supposed to investigate real crimes and rely on resdents to help--increasing animosity beteen police and residents, or making some residents wary of the police, will just serve to erode the trust and the help the community will provide when even serious crimes are investigated.

I agree that this is a real problem when it comes to things like the Arizona illegal alien law. It's a problem compounded by the misinformation and scare tactics employed by the so-called "advocacy groups" that help to deepen this wedge.

But the solution to this problem isn't for Arizona to throw up its hands and give in to this sea of falsehoods about the law. The solution is an aggressive outreach and education effort in the Arizona Hispanic community, to provide reassurance, and to fight the lies with facts.

[Big RR]

Big RR, you raised an issue in the thread you started on this topic in the CSB, that I think it has merit and deserves to be discussed, so I'm going to respond to it here....(Because I'm no longer posting at the CSB...and I see Steve is gearing up to push your thread off yet another MOTU cliff anyway)

You said:

But I think the biggest problem of that law is the wedge it drives between the police and the hispanic community in general. Police are supposed to investigate real crimes and rely on resdents to help--increasing animosity beteen police and residents, or making some residents wary of the police, will just serve to erode the trust and the help the community will provide when even serious crimes are investigated.

I agree that this is a real problem when it comes to things like the Arizona illegal alien law. It's a problem compounded by the misinformation and scare tactics employed by the so-called "advocacy groups" that help to deepen this wedge.

But the solution to this problem isn't for Arizona to throw up its hands and give in to this sea of falsehoods about the law. The solution is an aggressive outreach and education effort in the Arizona Hispanic community, to provide reassurance, and to fight the lies with facts.

I disagree, Jim. The immigrant communitycommunity, legal and illegal, has a fear and mistrust of INS/ICE officials. Whether justiified or not, I think it is unwise for the police to ally themselves with, or be seen as an arm of, these agencies. This is not throwing hands up to any falsehhods re the law, but merely recognizing that in order to do their jobs and investigate serious crimes, the police should not be seen as ICE agents. AZ is giving up a lot more than many realize when the police are seen this way.

[loCAtek]

No. You're a citizen of the country you were born in; that's what all the Brouhaha about Obama is about. (sort-of) While Mexicans do make anchor babies, this is really discrimination against Hispanics. My Gran'po was a child born like that, but it's not as popular or effective anymore with all the new immigration laws. This plays on a myth.

Oh horse shit. These people are breaking the law and will continue to do so in greater numbers as the babies continue to receive citizenship. The government is reluctant to send people back who have babies here and I think breaking families up over this is pretty repugnant. Thus the term "anchor". Having these babies here has been successful in keeping illegals here.

Not, what I said. "The government is reluctant to send people back who have babies here and I think breaking families up over this is pretty repugnant." I'd like your source on this, as I hadn't heard of it.
For the record my family's case is what BigRR described, that my granpo as a baby, did return to Mexico with his family. These days those children are often just granted dual citizenship, but it doesn't automatically extend to, nor help out the remaining family in entering the USA. The child as a adult simply can cross the boarder as often as he/she likes. The biggest problem with that is these folks often become coyotes.

Frankly, illegal immigration from Mexico has been down since 911. Arizona (and the rest of the country) are simply feeling pressure from the tough employment market to reduce any competition for jobs.