Plan B Forum

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- The U.S. Mint is facing a problem -- especially during these penny-pinching times. It turns out it costs more to make pennies and nickels than the coins are worth.

And because of that, the Obama administration this week asked Congress for permission to change the mix of metal that goes to make pennies and nickels, an expensive recipe that has remained unchanged for more than 30 years.

To be precise, it cost 2.4 cents to make one penny in 2011 and about 11.2 cents for each nickel.

Full story.

Typical government waste. A problem that is obvious and a solution that is simple, but instead we will waste enormous amounts of money trying to figure out how to continue to waste enormous amounts of money.

Just eliminate the penny and the nickel. They are obsolete (just like the Porsche 911 )

If the coins stay in circulation long enough, the fact that they cost more to produce than their face value isn't really an issue. The problem with pennies is that people hoard them to such an extent that they don't get recirculated enough to make it worth producing them.

This is the real waste, disguised as a savings:

Treasury had already made a cost-saving move in December when it stopped making dollar coins.

With 1.4 billion surplus presidential dollar coins sitting in bank vaults waiting to be circulated, and American consumers showing little appetite to start using the coins, Treasury estimates the halt in production of the coins will save about $50 million a year.

Stop producing dollar bills and people will start using dollar coins soon enough. And the savings in the long run will be huge.

The American people have made abundantly clear, over and over that they do not want dollar coins. Period.

Any politicians who did what you're suggesting Scooter would be punished at the polls, and rightly so.

I believe this is one of those issues that a lot people would base their vote on for two reasons:

First, it's something that would negatively impact their lives every single day on a practical level.

Second, it would be an enormously clear symbol of government arrogance run amuck....

I can't imagine any President or Congress, (I don't believe this is a decision that an Administration can make unilaterally, but if they could it really wouldn't make a difference) doing this....

The political upside is zip, and the potential political downside is disastrous....

And the benefit in objective terms as far as the cost is concerned is puny in the overall scheme of things...

The paper dollar isn't going away in this country, unless and until representative democracy goes away...

And those who'd like to see the paper dollar abolished need to face this reality.

We can of course talk about it, just as we can talk about any fantasy; but it is a fantasy.

Lord Jim wrote:The American people have made abundantly clear, over and over that they do not want dollar coins. Period.

It seems to me that people like the dollar coins so much that they don't want to spend them. If there was no paper dollar, people would use them instead of hoarding them and it would be no big deal.

With all that people have to deal with every day, this is an issue that Americans will go to the wall over? Seriously?

Thanks for the insight into your national psyche.

If there was no paper dollar, people would use them instead of hoarding them and it would be no big deal.

Joe, if the government, in the face of overwhelming opposition arbitrarily attempted to impose this by fiat, it would be a huge deal....

The public outrage would be immense....

I believe that the grassroots pressure would be such, the decision would be reversed within days....

If the administration that made this foolish, pointless mistake didn't back down, legislation preventing them from implementing the decision would sail through both houses of Congress in record time by substantial bipartisan majorities....

Lord Jim wrote:
Joe, if the government, in the face of overwhelming opposition arbitrarily attempted to impose this by fiat, it would be a huge deal....

The public outrage would be immense....

Why?

Scooter wrote:With all that people have to deal with every day, this is an issue that Americans will go to the wall over? Seriously?

Thanks for the insight into your national psyche.

The shadow lurks in the abyss.

Joe Guy wrote:

Lord Jim wrote:
Joe, if the government, in the face of overwhelming opposition arbitrarily attempted to impose this by fiat, it would be a huge deal....

The public outrage would be immense....

Why?

I'm with that too.

I don't understand the reluctance to remove the Dollar Bill and replace it with coins.

Jim are you projecting your own reluctance to remove it onto the population?

The problem with Dollar coins has been the fact that they refuse to stop producing the bills. not only that but they produce all dollars and quarters now a days in collectable forms encouraging people not to use them. if they stopped producing them the private sector will stop dragging ass and fix the major problems they have with using them (namely vending (and I can tell you not having to put up with bill validators as much will do wonders for my blood pressure))

this is another problem with the government only doing something halfway (remember metric) and messing it up completely.

THe biggest problem Our government has is that it's afraid to inconvenience our population the slightest bit no matter how much it may improve our lives in the long run.

When the US Treasury stopped producing half cents back in 1857, they had more purchasing power at the time than dimes do now.

Jim are you projecting your own reluctance to remove it onto the population?

Well, the entire US political class must be engaging in the same sort of "projection" since no responsible political figure has ever proposed following this arrogant course....

In a representative democracy, the only legitimate reason that a government can have for overriding the clearly expressed popular will, particularly when it comes to something that imposes direct inconveniences and hardships on the people, is if it can demonstrate some compelling national interest that requires it to do so...

What sort of reason rises to that level to justify this high-handed, anti-democratic scheme?

Obviously, there is no national security, national defense, health crisis or safety issues...

And clearly there are no "civil rights" or other Constitutional, "minority rights" issues involved....

The cost issues are less than miniscule, (and in any event the citizenry has made quite clear that the production of paper dollar bills is something it wants public money spent on, and spending public money on things the public clearly wants is how things are supposed to work in a democracy.)

So what is the legitimate basis for over riding the desires of the vast majority of the populace on this?

Absolutely none, that I can see... Social engineering for social engineering's sake....

I guess the question I would have for those who seem to think it would be just peachy to ignore the clearly expressed views of the majority and impose on them something they manifestly do not want for no compelling reason would be:

Why do you hate our democracy?

(remember metric)

Ah yes, another Carter Era folly....

Hopefully it will be a long, long time before any US government ever attempts that nonsense again....

A recent poll from Lincoln Park Strategies, a public opinion research firm based in Washington, D.C., finds Americans much prefer keeping the paper dollar bill over transferring over to a metal coin alternative. The poll comes after news that Arizona House Republican David Schweikert introduced of legislation to abandon the paper dollar bill altogether, replacing it with a coin.[A Republican introduced this? Shame on him!]

In a rare act of bi-partisan consensus, around three quarters of Republicans, Democrats and Independents polled said they were opposed to the idea of switching to coins.

And to many, it's not just fun and games. The majority of those polled felt strongly enough about the issue they said it would influence how they voted.

The legislation that Schweikert calls the Currency Optimization, Innovation and National Savings, or COINS Act, is largely based on a March 2011 report from the Government Accountability Office that found the switch to a dollar coin would save around $5.5 billion over the course of 30 years, [whoopty do whoopty do!]The Hill reports, roughly the lifespan of a single coin. Comparatively, a paper bill lasts only two or three years.

With the federal deficit totaling around $1.1 trillion through July, switching to a dollar-coin might provide a way those desperate in Congress to cut costs.

But if history is any indication, the dollar coin still has some hurdles to cross. The Susan B. Anthony, Sacagawea and presidential dollar-coins, have been criticized as a "a total flop". Others are hesitant to support the switch with a billion dollar- coins already sitting unused in Federal Reserve banks around the country due to their lack of popularity.

For the average American, though, the resistance to dollar coins may be for simpler reasons. Of those surveyed, 77 percent said the paper dollar is more convenient, and 86 percent said it's more widely accepted, while three quarters of those polled said they don't want a dollar coin or find it unnecessary.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/1 ... 19704.html

Lord Jim wrote:So what is the legitimate basis for over riding the desires of the vast majority of the populace on this?

I didn't realize that the vast majority of our populace wants paper dollar bills instead of coins. So I did a search and found this article with a Poll that you can still vote on and view the current results.

I'm sure there are many other polls showing varied results. If this really is such an important issue (which seems laughable to me) why not put it on the ballot?

I didn't realize that the vast majority of our populace wants paper dollar bills instead of coins. So I did a search and found this article with a Poll that you can still vote on and view the current results.

Online polls that anyone can vote in aren't scientific, and are not considered valid indicators of overall popular sentiment.

For the results of a recent scientifically conducted survey, see my previous post.

ETA:

I just did a little searching, and I found several other scientific random sample polls conducted on this going back to 2004, (The one in my previous post was conducted last fall) and I can't find one that shows less than 75% opposed to switching to coin dollars.

I'd be well pissed if Aus and/or the UK went back to paper pounds/dollars. I'm waiting for Aus to break out a $5.00 coin.

Well Strop, those countries are also representative democracies, and if your view reflects the way most of your fellow countrymen feel about it than that is as it should be....

If the people in those countries don't want basic unit paper currency, I certainly wouldn't be in favor of forcing it on them.

You should have seen the fuss when this happened Jim!

15 February 1971 was D-Day - or rather Decimalisation Day, when the British gave up their traditional pounds, shillings and pence (and guineas, ten-bob notes, half crowns and threepenny bits) in favour of what in theory was a much simpler system. But, as this film demonstrates, many found it confusing, particularly people like old Granny Collins (Doris Hare) who'd spent a long life with 'LSD' and wasn't about to change. This dramatised documentary, sponsored by the Decimal Currency Board, predicts the effects of decimalisation on her family and sought to explain the changes in ways that everyone could understand.

You can read more about this film at http://www.screenonline.org.uk/film/id/1271792/

Love the "Dolly Bird" daughter.

I find it hard to believe that paper vs coin would be such a volatile issue to the people of the U.S. as you portray it, Jim.

Especially at a time when people are using more plastic than ever before.

But maybe I'm just out of touch.