Plan B Forum

Posted: **Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:48 pm**

Fort Hood accused Nidal Hasan 'must shave off beard'

Nidal Hasan Nidal Hasan is accused of opening fire on soldiers preparing for deployment at Fort Hood

The man accused of killing 13 people at a Texas army base has been told to shave his beard before his murder trial, or have it forcibly removed.

Major Nidal Hasan argued he had grown it in compliance with his Muslim faith.

But a military judge said the 41-year-old had failed to prove sincere religious reasons for the beard, which is against army regulations.

The army psychiatrist is accused of opening fire on soldiers preparing for deployment at Fort Hood, Texas.

Thirty-two people were injured in the 2009 attack

Posted: **Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:11 pm**

Soldiers have strict grooming requirments, and this clearly doesn't fit.

I don't know that any judge is in a position to determine whether or not someone's beliefs are sincere, however.

Posted: **Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:56 pm**

Posted: **Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:02 pm**

Soldiers can keep their beards under strict conditions.

Posted: **Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:58 am**

While under incarceration, soldiers have even less rights ...

Posted: **Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:02 pm**

He was able to serve in the Army for more than a decade WITHOUT a beard, with no problem, but now that he's in the brig he finds that his religion demands a beard.

One would have to take his pleas with a bit of skepticism.

Posted: **Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:23 pm**

In the grand scheme of things i can't see why the judge is taking this hard line. Many military personnel have beards, grosing them on leave (and in civilian clothes) and shaving bnefore they return to wearing the uniform . I would think the judge could rule that he could choose to either appear before the court martial in uniform and clena shaven or in his orange jumpsuit with a beard. Forcibly removing it seems akin to the nazis shaving the jewish men's beards, saying there was no real reason to let them keep them; why stir up a controversy for no real reason.

Posted: **Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:52 pm**

dgs49 wrote:He was able to serve in the Army for more than a decade WITHOUT a beard, with no problem, but now that he's in the brig he finds that his religion demands a beard.

One would have to take his pleas with a bit of skepticism.

Aren't we told so often that those who find themselves in difficult situations often turn to religion and it becomes a source of comfort to them? Why assume it to be any less true in this case?

Posted: **Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:59 pm**

One could argue, I suppose, (though I seriously doubt his attorney will try to take this tact) that his murderous rampage was itself evidence of the "sincerity" of his religious convictions (at least in the twisted way he see it) since that was the motive for the killings....

Killing thirteen people and wounding dozens more would seem to indicate a fairly high level of commitment....

ETA:

Though one can certainly sympathize with the military authorities, (many of whom, given the scope of the carnage, no doubt know people personally who were affected by the depraved actions of this POS) for their not wanting to indulge him in any way.

I can see arguments on both sides, but it's really a trivial matter when you look at the central crime involved...

There's no question of this man's guilt; the only question is whether he will pass the legal standard for sanity, (which seems overwhelmingly likely.)

Then the only question becomes does he get sentenced to Life in Leavenworth, or Life in front of a firing squad...

I suppose that it will come as a surprise to no one here that personally, I very much favor the latter.

Posted: **Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:14 pm**

If I were the judge I'd compromise. I'd allow him to keep the beard if he would also grow hair on his head.

Posted: **Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:19 pm**

Posted: **Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:59 pm**

Scooter wrote: Aren't we told so often that those who find themselves in difficult situations often turn to religion and it becomes a source of comfort to them? Why assume it to be any less true in this case?

Because he picked the 'wrong' religion?

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:51 am**

Big RR wrote:In the grand scheme of things i can't see why the judge is taking this hard line. Many military personnel have beards, grosing them on leave (and in civilian clothes) and shaving bnefore they return to wearing the uniform . I would think the judge could rule that he could choose to either appear before the court martial in uniform and clena shaven or in his orange jumpsuit with a beard. Forcibly removing it seems akin to the nazis shaving the jewish men's beards, saying there was no real reason to let them keep them; why stir up a controversy for no real reason.

While he's incarcerated in a military prison, he must conform to miltiary standards, and/or those imposed by a judicial officer.

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:46 pm**

He wants to grow the beard as an expression of personal identity and proof of his autonomy as a person. Outward proof that the inner man belongs to himself and has cut away the voluntary subjugation of his identity as a soldier.

The court is saying that he cannot pretend outwardly to have the ability to abandon his subjugation simply because he has become a mass murdering lunatic. His crime is worse because of what he was. He was a soldier who murdered fellow soldiers. He cannot pretend not to be by looking otherwise.

The judge did the right thing.

yrs,
rubato

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:34 pm**

Damn, rube made a good point...

I must be drunk....

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:52 pm**

[quote]The court is saying that he cannot pretend outwardly to have the ability to abandon his subjugation simply because he has become a mass murdering lunatic. His crime is worse because of what he was. He was a soldier who murdered fellow soldiers. He cannot pretend not to be by looking otherwise./quote]

Being in a military prison and wearing an orange prisoner jumpsuit isn't enough to show what he was/is? I just don't see it.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:43 am**

There's whole host of military prison regulations...

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:39 am**

Big RR wrote:
The court is saying that he cannot pretend outwardly to have the ability to abandon his subjugation simply because he has become a mass murdering lunatic. His crime is worse because of what he was. He was a soldier who murdered fellow soldiers. He cannot pretend not to be by looking otherwise./quote]

Being in a military prison and wearing an orange prisoner jumpsuit isn't enough to show what he was/is? I just don't see it.

Military prisons have a much more strigent set of rules. Since he is still "in the military" he is subject to the rules that govern both behavour and deportment.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:01 am**

Big RR wrote:
The court is saying that he cannot pretend outwardly to have the ability to abandon his subjugation simply because he has become a mass murdering lunatic. His crime is worse because of what he was. He was a soldier who murdered fellow soldiers. He cannot pretend not to be by looking otherwise./quote]

Being in a military prison and wearing an orange prisoner jumpsuit isn't enough to show what he was/is? I just don't see it.

And I cannot see how shooting and killing several people gave him rights he did not have before.

yrs,
rubato

Posted: **Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:23 pm**

firstly, I don't know he had no right to wear the beard while in uniform; as I recall, exemptions are granted for various reason. But even if he didn't, he always had the right to wear a beard (real or fake, for that mater) out of uniform. And uness the army has changed, an orange jump suit is not a uniform.

Plan B Forum

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