Dismaland

[wesw]

I used to know a bob who rode a bike, but not the wagon. he had a trust fund that his granny set up for him that gave him just enough money to live each month, but not enough to kill himself with substances, at least not all at once

[liberty]

I said "looks great" - not "sounds great". I might boycott the swearing parts - especially if it is simply gratuitous vulgarity demonstrating how grown-up the artist(s) are. Poo flinging, you know.

I can live with the vulgarity as long there are no children around; it is profanity that really bothers me. Now if you wanted to say that Mohammed was a fagot or some other crude name I could live with that as long the name calling did not extend to God and Jesus.

[Crackpot]

So as long as it doesn't affect you it don't matter

[wesw]

if I want to see dismaland I ll just go to Detroit....

[Lord Jim]

I might boycott the swearing parts - especially if it is simply gratuitous vulgarity

I guess it's all about how one defines "gratuitous"...

For me it's not about quantity per se, but about appropriateness and realism for what is being portrayed...

Homeland one of the finest shows in current production has a fair amount of swearing but it doesn't seem at all "gratuitous". IRL adults in high pressure jobs (particularly alpha types, as most of the major characters in the show are) swear; that's just a fact. There's nothing "gratuitous" about incorporating that realism into the program.

As I said before another high quality show, Deadwood, had more swearing in it than any other television series I've ever seen, bar none. (It also had some brilliant dialog that bordered on the Shakespearean in lyricism and poetry. So it was quite obvious the writers weren't incorporating a lot of obscenities because they were lazy and/or couldn't write good dialog. )

But this was a show about the doings in an Wild West mining town in the 1870's...

Wild West Saloon keepers and gunslingers didn't talk like nuns...You would expect there to be the most swearing this side of a prison...

To have the characters going around saying "shoot" "gosh darn" and "oh fudge" would have constituted "gratuitous prudery"...

The same thing with the inner city drug dealers in The Wire

But, for example, if somebody makes a Christmas movie and decides to have Santa's elves swearing at each other like sailors because they think it's "cute" or funny, that would meet my bar for "gratuitous" (and also juvenile). It's got nothing to do with the plot; it's just tossed in to elicit snickers and giggles..."Potty humor"...

On the other hand Gen'l, I have gotten the impression from what you have written on the subject, that your standard for "gratuitous" when it comes to swearing in a TV show or movie is "any".

[MajGenl.Meade]

Homeland - started watching it. Quit
Deadwood - never did watch it
The Wire - started watching it. Quit

I don't watch shows in which (IMO) the characters are unredeemed scum with no valuable contribution to make to "entertainment".
They are part and parcel of the vulgarization of the USA and warping of the newer generations into creatures of no cultural taste, manners or sensitivity. (There are exceptions - oddly they usually turn out to be the kids of people who watch these shows a lot)

OTOH, the movie Fargo is one of my favourites and there's a lot of bad language in that one. But the characters of Marge and her husband are extremely sympathetic - without them, this movie would not be worth watching. Some of the scenes of the locals and in particular the painful dialog between Marge and Ken in the hotel restaurant are priceless gems. I have a lot of time for the Cohn brothers - always willing to give them a chance. (OTOH Quentin Tarantino movies are simply childish crap - Django Unchained showed he has an interest in cinematic history but other than that, I'll be happy never to see it again)

OTOH, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid is a terrific film and they manage to get through the Wild West without swearing and without Golly Gee Whiz (much). Unforgiven - great movie; bit of language, doesn't need to be wallpapered all over in f-bombs so that ancient farts feel "with it". Oh and the movie Tombstone... a bit long (and short on accuracy) but gritty... that's a good one.

Sorry LJ - I know you love to watch films of people swearing, shitting on the streets, picking their noses, urinating on each other and so on - all of which is "reality" - but I just turn away (and pee on the wall).

PS I probably have exaggerated just a teeny bit about the films you enjoy ....

[Guinevere]

Really, I'm not a fan of violence, or glamourizing (see what I did there) the drug trade, but The Wire is one of the best (if not THE best) television show I have ever seen. It's brutal and rough, but so is life in that part of our world. Better to see it and maybe understand a bit, than be so fragile a flower than you cannot watch.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Not fragile Guin, just bored to tears watching scummy people do scummy things.

[Lord Jim]

oddly they usually turn out to be the kids of people who watch these shows a lot

Then perhaps you should revisit your analysis...

I don't watch shows in which (IMO) the characters are unredeemed scum

Just because a protagonist is complex and imperfect, doesn't make them "unredeemed scum"...

Carrie Mathison, the protagonist in Homeland, (played brilliantly by Claire Danes)is flawed, tormented, at times cynically manipulative, and far from "perfect", but she is hardly "unredeemed scum" or "unsympathetic"...

Ditto Jessica Jones; she's hard-edged and uber cynical but she also has a very good heart...

And in any crime drama (or many other genres) there will always be some characters who are "unredeemed scum"...(You say you like Longmire, and Barlow Connolly was certainly unredeemed scum...among many other dastardly deeds, he murdered his own son in cold blood)

If you just want to watch shows and movies with true-blue 100% noble John Wayne-type protagonists you're really limiting yourself...

[Guinevere]

Jim is correct. Once of the most interesting characters on The Wire is Stringer Bell (played by the yummy Idris Elba), who is the 2nd in command to the drug kingpin. Smart, savvy, he goes to community college, learns about economics and investments, loves reading, and makes some interesting changes to the drug business. He was an incredibly multi-leveled and fascinating character.

And as I noted before, in line with Jim's comments, the world is not made up of John Wayne heroes. It's far more interesting and complex than that.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Drug kingpin = scum. Fascinating changes to the drug business = scum

I don't know how it is you can read what I wrote about the movie Fargo and come away with the idea that I only watch "true blue John Wayne" things. I'd guess non-reading is the only answer.

(Thanks for the Longmire spoiler, LJ)

[Guinevere]

Really, I'm complex and imperfect (ask my Swede), but I'm not unredeemed scum . . .

[MajGenl.Meade]

OFFS not you - the character you spoke of

[Guinevere]

[wesw]

maybe he meant clint eastwood?

left turn clyde.....

[MajGenl.Meade]

The second F stands for Felix.

[Lord Jim]

I thought it stood for "fudge"...

[Lord Jim]

(Thanks for the Longmire spoiler, LJ)

Sorry Gen'l, I thought you had seen the most recent Netflix series..

I assume that you didn't care for The Godfather movies...

A bunch of scummy crime lords doing scummy crime lord things...

[liberty]

So as long as it doesn't affect you it don't matter

Well, I wouldn’t do it myself. I am not the type to intentionally insult other people’s religion, of course if I was threaten with death if I did offend; in that case, would have to do it to defend my freedom of speech.

True while I think that a gratuitous insult to Mohammed would be a crude thing to do I would not be effected in the way I would be if my lord and savior was attacked.

If you insult Mohammed you face death, but if you insult Jesus the only thing you would have to worry about is praise as an artist.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Still working through series 2, LJ. Alternating with Legend (no spoilers please).

It is an interesting dilemma really. Clockwork Orange was a movie I really enjoyed when it came out - especially the music, oddly enough. I tried to watch it later and was really disappointed in how unpleasant it all was - the book too - and I know I could not (actually, would not) watch it today - clever as it all was. The Godfather - yes, that was an enjoyable movie too although everyone in it was reprehensible.

Sometimes I think the differentiating factor is that in CO and the Godfather movies, we were not supposed to think that these people were somehow "heroic". But in things like "Breaking Bad" (although I watched not one second of it), the central notion is that making meth (or whatever the gubbins is) is in some way commendable. In Dexter (my granddaughter loved it) the idea is of a serial killer doing away with baddies who are, one supposes, "worse" than he is or has been.

I don't want to watch those really. They are not heroes. There is nothing commendable that makes worth holding them and their values up to the world as worthy. An analysis of some John Wayne movies certainly raises doubts as to his characters' moral worth but often that's in light of the more relaxed mores these days - at the time, he was assumed to be "righteous". But I'm not sure that The Quiet Man is exactly a template for relationships and 'what women want'.

On the whole, I'd far rather watch Lonesome Dove or almost anything with Tommy Lee Jones or Robert Duvall in it - the aforementioned Clint Eastwood - even much of De Niro's work. There are so many good movies and shows that don't need to plumb the gutter to be 'relevant'.

OTOH the long version of One Upon A Time In America (another movie that Tarantino paid homage to in Kill Bill, I believe it was) is populated by unpleasant people and some awful things - but I find it fascinating as a study of kids growing into men in a world that no longer exists. I enjoyed the early years scenes mostly and the baby-substituting wheeze remains a highlight.

But you're correct - it's more complex than any desire for everything to be like Little Mouse on the Prayer Mat