I dont go there .

[oldr_n_wsr]

Wife beating is just one reason The Honeymooners was not funny.

I must have missed that episode. Only time I remember Ralph laying a hand on Alice was to kiss her.

[Lord Jim]

Yeah oldr, there are some gross misinterpretations of the Ralph Kramden character and his relationships with Alice and Ed in this thread...presumably because they have never seen more than one or two episodes...

I don't have the time right now, but I have been meaning to debunk these false claims in detail; I'll probably do it over the weekend...

[Long Run]

Yes, the "one of these days, Alice, right in the kisser" line is the equivalent of "don't make me come over there". Not abuse, but for many of us, not funny either. But, like you say, a lot of people loved it when it came out, and have continued to do so based on the reruns and syndication. I would hazard a guess that the audience for these unfunny shows, like I Love Lucy, Three Stooges, Honeymooners, etc., vastly outnumber the audience for the critically acclaimed Leonard Cohen (and of that audience I have no doubt that there are some who actually like him, like Meade, and then there are those who say they like Cohen so they think they can sound smart and tasteful).

[Lord Jim]

there are those who say they like Cohen so they think they can sound smart and tasteful

Wow, talk about the definition of "the joke's on them"

[TPFKA@W]

Yeah, men threatening to punch their wives is the ultimate in entertainment.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I agree with oldr and LJ that it's unfair to say that Kramden physically abused Alice. However, the verbal abuse is obvious and indefensible. Perhaps it can be said that, "People thought it was funny".

That's why n****r jokes are OK too - people think they are funny... right?

[Big RR]

Well first of all, we're talking about a show that was filmed around 50 years ago, when attitudes were different and people spoke differently. And it was a show that was decidedly blue collar in tone--something new for the time. Also, despite all his bluster and fits, Ralph Kramden never touched his wife or even really physically threatened her; indeed, he was an idiot with a heart of gold who adored and would have pretty much done anything for her, which was part of the joke.

Also, she got her cuts in as well, making fun of him and his weight, telling him to shut up on numerous occasions, and threatening him as well. This was pretty astounding for the times, when all wives on TV were pretty demure and, if they ultimately came out on top, they never gloated or challenged their husbands (even someone like Lucy).

For me, I think the charm of the show was Gleason himself, who could change from a blowhard to a contrite poor soul almost instantaneously. I agree it's not to everyone's taste, but it's hardly a primer on spousal abuse.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Yes, the point is not really "what it was like 50 years ago". The point is why anyone today would find it amusing that two people could be so repulsively rude

[Big RR]

Well that is a point, which is presumably why you don't care for the show. I imagine you didn't care for All in the Family, the Flinstones, or Married With children too. Probably not Seinfeld either, because those characters were nothing if not constantly rude.

Personally, I find the characters are deeper than the rudeness, and I tend to like multifaceted characters. However, I detest certain types of behavior to the point that I can't even watch the show to see if the characters are multifaceted (House and The Shield are two examples of that--these shows were critically acclaimed and enjoyed by many people whose opinions I respect, but I couldn't get beyond the first show, so I understand your point.

[MG McAnick]

Then why is the line "to the Moon, Alice" so well known?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98qw86DsdZ0

https://www.google.com/search?q=ralph+K ... -6aqoOM%3A

You must not have seen those episodes.

[Big RR]

Absolutely, just like "One of these days...POW, right in the kisser". My point is none were serious threats.

[Lord Jim]

You guys have got this so wrong...

A far better argument could be made that it was Alice who was the "abusive" one...verbally and psychologically (though I wouldn't argue that either...)

She was constantly crushing his dreams with sarcasm...here's just one example:

Ralph Kramden: Look, Alice, please, it's simple arithmetic. We buy something for ten cents, and we sell it for a dollar! It's that simple.

Alice Kramden: If it's so simple, Ralph, why didn't the man who had these things in his warehouse sell them and make this big profit?

Ralph Kramden: Because he thinks small like you do. He thinks he's got to go from door to door to sell these things. That's where my great idea comes in. I go on television and in five minutes, I can sell the whole 2,000 of them. Look, how long do you think it would take that guy to sell 2,000 of these if he went from door to door?

Alice Kramden: About one minute if this was the first door he knocked on.

It was Alice who wore the pants in that relationship, Ralph's bluster not withstanding...

Even though technically he was the "bread winner" (such as it was) in their relationship, she controlled their finances with an iron fist...

Every time he wanted to spend money on something, he had to practically beg her for the cash, and more often then not she turned him down...

And she was never the slightest bit intimidated or scared by him...

For circa 1955 TV, Alice Kramden was a pretty strong female role model...

[wesw]

my girl is 13, and has the smart mouth of a typical 13 yr old, she knows everything....

so one day recently she was mouthing off and I said "what s your favorite food, knowing that she would say steak...

when she did say steak I told her she was in luck, because if she kept it up I was gonna bust her lip til tasted mouth tasted like a T-bone.

now, she knows that will never happen, but it made her smile, and I have been repeating it whenever she gets mouthy to her mom or me,

she tells me how not funny it is, but she smiles every time I say it....

[TPFKA@W]

[quote charm of the show was Gleason himself][/quote]

There we have it, the problem for me. Gleason had no charm. There is no role I ever saw him in that I liked. At least not that comes to mind.

[MajGenl.Meade]

So LJ, the defense rests on the fact that it was Alice who was more awful than Ralph?

Yes, the point is not really "what it was like 50 years ago". The point is why anyone today would find it amusing that two people could be so repulsively rude

[Lord Jim]

Gleason was a comedic genius...

And when you look at the timing, and the way that show was put together...

Brilliant stuff...

There's a Honeymooners episode where Alice brings a pup home...

And Ralph, being Ralph...

insists that he's going to take the dog back to the pound...

Not knowing what that means...

And then he comes home with half a dozen dogs because, "They were past their time"...


Ralph Kramden, for all his bluster and bloviating, was a decent man...

[Long Run]

Gleason was excellent in The Hustler with Paul Newman.

[Bicycle Bill]

Yeah, men threatening to punch their wives is the ultimate in entertainment.

As opposed to today, when two men (or two women) get into a chain-link cage for the sole purpose of trying to beat the other one bloody?

It has already been pointed out he never did strike her.  And didn't most of the episodes end up like this (or some variation thereof)?



-"BB"-

[Lord Jim]

A bit of Honeymooners trivia....

When Gleason was casting for Alice Kramden, he didn't want Audrey Meadows....

He thought she was too "good looking" to play Ralph Kramden's wife...

But Meadows really wanted to play the role, so she showed up with no make up on, and looking as "Plain Jane " as she possibly could for the audition...

And the rest of course, is history...

[Guinevere]

Most overrated show of all time.