Death of the guitar band

[Sean]

LMAO - say it as you see it Rube!

[loCAtek]

Sean Ha!

Just because samplers do not themselves generate the noise which becomes music, relying on a sample of "recorded" note (s) that does not make it any less of an instrument that the mellotron, or the syth.

Absolutely, the wail of a saxophone was deemed noise, as was the fuzz of the electric guitar. Both were considered perversions of 'proper instruments'. It's not how that noise is made, but how it is composed that makes it music.

[Sean]

The difference is that the sax and the guitar create those notes while the sampler does not. The aforementioned sax and guiar are examples of musical instruments whereas the sampler is an example of a production tool.

It's not how that noise is made, but how it is composed that makes it music.

I don't understand... Do you mean how it is written down or notated?

[Gob]

Disagree Sean.

Does a mellotron create notes?

[Sean]

I never said it did old chap! That would be you.

Actually though, at least some of the early model mellotrons allowed the player to create a melody with his right hand whilst playing the tapes back with his left...

[Gob]

I think the sampler has a bad press.

That tune of mine I sent to you everything in it was created on a sampler, (and a synth.)


I cannot learn to play a violin, oboe, bass, cello, french horn, flute clarinet, viola, but I can make a reasonable fist of them on a sampler, so what's the beef?

It doesn't "create" the note, it replays it, .....and?

Just to add to the debate, the crafting of the note for replay is as musicianly as playing a note on a guitar then editing it on a sound desk.

Layering samples, and samplers to give an authentic sound is making music.

[Sean]

I cannot learn to play a violin, oboe, bass, cello, french horn, flute clarinet, viola, but I can make a reasonable fist of them on a sampler, so what's the beef?

No beef with that whatsoever. Beethoven couldn't play all of those instruments either. He knew what sounds he wanted to get from them and used a piano to bring it to life. Just like you use a synth... which let's face it is an electronic piano. You create the notes with the synth. You manipulate them with the sampler.

...and I bet you anything you could learn to play any of those instruments quite competently you lazy bastard!

Just to add to the debate, the crafting of the note for replay is as musicianly as playing a note on a guitar then editing it on a sound desk.

Of course it is... if of course by 'crafting' you mean the creation of the note using a synth or other instrument.

In that example: Synth or guitar = instrument
Sampler or sound board = production tool


Easy peasy!

[Gob]

I was thinking more of; taking a sampled sound (for example a field recording of birdsong,) then using editing software (I use Adobe Audition 3.0) to create a perfect sample (which may ultimately sound more like a motorbike than a songbird, if required) then re-pitching it across say 4 octaves, to be played via a sampler.

Oh, the whole of the rhythm tracks on one of my trance pieces consistes of bits sampled from an early guitar solo (waa waa wank) by Steve Howe of "Yes", but I defy anyone to tell me it's not a complete drum sound.

[Sean]

To put it simply, you're taking a pre-recorded sound and manipulating it. A worthy skill indeed but it does not make one a musician. What makes you a musician are the sounds you create with your synth.

Your second example is more straightforward. In this case Steve Howe is the musician whilst you are the producer. You are no more of a musician in this scenario than Phil Spector or George Martin.

...actually Martin is not a good example as he often played piano on early Beatles recordings...

For me the distinction is simple: Did you create sound where before there was none?

If your answer is yes, congratulations! You are a musician!
If your answer is no, stop stealing other people's work you bastard!

[Gob]

I disagree. What makes you a musician is the music that you make, wherether it comes out of a guitar amp, a flute reed, a log drum or a sampler.

A sampler is an electronic musical instrument similar in some respects to a synthesizer but, instead of generating sounds, it uses recordings (or "samples") of sounds that are loaded or recorded into it by the user and then played back by means of a keyboard, sequencer or other triggering device to perform or compose music. Because these samples are nowadays usually stored in digital memory the information can be quickly accessed. A single sample may often be pitch-shifted to produce musical scales and chords.

[Sean]

And I disagree right back!

There is a difference between making music and manipulating music.

Where's Steve when you need him? He's a muso, he'd back me up on this...

272 matches and counting...

[Joe Guy]

And I disagree right back!

There is a difference between making music and manipulating music.

Where's Steve when you need him? He's a muso, he'd back me up on this...

I certainly agree with you, Sean.

Playing a guitar or any other instrument is a musician's job.

Gathering sounds from various places and using a machine to create a finished product might make you a composer, but not a musician.

[loCAtek]

This sounds like a mix-up of semantics, because a composer is who creates new music. A musician is one who plays music, be it his or someone else's compositions.

[Gob]

And I disagree right back!

There is a difference between making music and manipulating music.

Where's Steve when you need him? He's a muso, he'd back me up on this...

272 matches and counting...

What is the difference between pressing a piano key and music coming out, and pressing a sampler key and music coming out?

Pushing it further, my M-Audio keyboard has weighted keys, so it is velocity sensitive. My sampler can be loaded with a full range of Steinway Grand samples, which can be played as if real. Is three blind mice played on a Steinway grand more "music" than if played on my keyboard and sampler?

[Sean]

Is three blind mice played on a Steinway grand more "music" than if played on my keyboard and sampler?

Keyboard and sound canvas or keyboard and emulator would be more accurate Strop. The overall package may be called a sampler but you're not using the sampling bit in that respect. It's like using CD 'burning' software to rip a CD. You are not using the burner part despite the name of the software.

If you hit 'middle C' on your keyboard and the note we call 'middle C' is heard then hey presto! you've just made some music! If you hit 'middle C' and Toccata and Fugue is heard then please refer to your user manual...

I think I can see where you're going with this though... There is of course a difference between using a sample to make a note you have played yourself sound like a piano and taking notes that someone else has played and making them sound different. Surely that much is obvious...

[Gob]

Now we're getting somewhere!

The confusion lies in people not discriminating between "samplers" the musical instrument, and "sampling" the use of snippets of song to construct a "new" song

[Crackpot]

What if the Piano is out of tune?

[loCAtek]

Then it's Honky Tonk music!

[Sean]

A sampler alone is not a musical instrument. The keyboard in conjunction with a sampler is an instrument. I think the real distinction needs to be made between those who play notes on a keyboard and use a sampler to edit them and those who use pre-recorded music and edit it using a sampler (or any other editing tool including turntables). One is a musician and the other is not.
Can you guess which is which?

Okay Strop, the million dollar question...

the use of snippets of song to construct a "new" song

Would you describe a person who does this and this alone as a musician?

[loCAtek]

...my two cents, that'd be a composer!


<music cue!>

'Decomposing Composers' by Python:



Beethoven's gone but his music lives on,
And Mozart don't go shoppin' no more,
You'll never meet Liszt or Brahms again,
And Elgar doesn't answer the door.
Schübert and Chopin used to chuckle and laugh,
Whilst composing a long symphony,
But one hundred and fifty years later,
There's very little of them left to see.

Chorus: They're decomposing composers,
There's nothing much anyone can do,
You can still hear Beethoven,
But Beethoven cannot hear you.

Händel and Haydn and Rachmaninov,
Enjoyed a nice drink with their meal,
But nowadays no-one will serve them,
And their gravy is left to congeal.
Verdi and Wagner delighted the crowds,
With their highly original sound,
The pianos they played are still working,
But they're both six feet underground.

Chorus: They're decomposing composers,
There's less of them every year,
You can say what you like to Debussy,
But there's not much of him left to hear.

Finish: Claude Achille Debussy, died 1918.
Christophe Willebaud Gluck, died 1787.
Carl Maria von Weber, not at all well
1825, died 1826. Giacomo Meyerbeer,
still alive 1863, not still alive 1864.Modeste Mussorgsky, 1880 going to parties,
no fun anymore 1881. Johan Nepomuck
Hummel, chatting away nineteen to the
dozen with his mates down the pub every
evening 1836, 1837 nothing.