Plan B Forum

...that John Lennon was shot and killed by Mark Chapman.

I will say that I am a fan. He had a good voice which turned into a great voice when he sang just above his natural range and strained it a bit.
But towards the end his musical output was getting weaker. I'm sure that collaborating with Yoko didn't help... it just made (IMO) some of his later music more insipid.

So here's the question(s):

Do you think that Lennon was on a downward spiral into his own arsehole and would have become a Bono* figure if he had lived?

Or

Would he eventually have kicked Yoko into touch and spent his later years getting stoned and recording duets with Keith Richards?

In other words, did Chapman do the music world a favour or a disservice?

*Look up 'countryside' in the OED and it is defined as the act of killing Bono*

*Probably...

Yes...

Not big fan of Lennon, nor his output. I just read his biography though and that wasn't a bad read.

Do you think that Lennon was on a downward spiral into his own arsehole and would have become a Bono* figure if he had lived?

It would have taken some effort to become that big an arse.

Would he eventually have kicked Yoko into touch and spent his later years getting stoned and recording duets with Keith Richards?

The man was pussy wipped, I think he would have gone down the shitter for love.

In other words, did Chapman do the music world a favour or a disservice?

Disservice, Lennon, for all his faults was a creative person.

Gob wrote:
Disservice, Lennon, for all his faults was a creative person.

Erm, as a co-creative Beatle. 'Double Fantasy' was pop rubbish.

Martyr someone early enough and you can't find fault in their decline.






...Bono should have been offed ages ago, to put him out of our misery.

I'm among the (apparently few) people who think Yoko Ono was probably the best thing that ever happened to John Lennon. Liberating him from the Beatles and exposing him to a more avante garde aesthetic was all to the good in developing his own creativity. I think he would have gone on to do much more interesting things musically had he not been killed.

I recognize the importance of the Beatles to pop music and the broader culture, but I was never much of a fan, mostly because I couldn't stand McCartney's treacle.

I don't think Lennon had the capacity to become a self-important asshole, as he seemed to be imbued with a pretty good sense of humor and perspective about himself.

Pretty clearly, a disservice.

Although I like both the treacle* and the more avant garde asthetic, I would have loved to hear what kind of songwriter Lennon developed into as he aged, and the world changed.

* That's 60's-era Beatles treacle only, not any of Paul's post-Beatles stuff.


And really, I don't see Bono as any kind of problem. I think he's passionate about something and speaks his mind. Good for him. I even still mostly like his music, too

Sue--besides Imagine, what are the post-Beatle songs by John you liked. Personally, I think after John's extended lost weekend, and his extended experiment with the kind of crap Yoko was pushing as music, he came out with Double Fantasy to show how he made a musical break with the Yoko garbage (which he featured right along side his music on the album--Yoko came off as kind of like Bjork without the talent). Sure his music was a return to his pop style, but it was also intensively self reflective in the lyrics, especially in Woman and Watching the Wheels). I agree with you that he would have done more and better music had his life not been ended, but I doubt he would have collaborated with Yoko much.

Big RR wrote:--Yoko came off as kind of like Bjork without the talent.

But with the bonkersness, but without the "I would, I know she's nutty as a fruitcake, but I definitely would" cuteness factor.

Big RR wrote:Sue--besides Imagine, what are the post-Beatle songs by John you liked. Personally, I think after John's extended lost weekend, and his extended experiment with the kind of crap Yoko was pushing as music, he came out with Double Fantasy to show how he made a musical break with the Yoko garbage (which he featured right along side his music on the album--Yoko came off as kind of like Bjork without the talent). Sure his music was a return to his pop style, but it was also intensively self reflective in the lyrics, especially in Woman and Watching the Wheels). I agree with you that he would have done more and better music had his life not been ended, but I doubt he would have collaborated with Yoko much.

Jeez, I liked just about everything he did post-Beatles better than the Lennon-McCartney stuff. Off the top of my head: Whatever Gets You Thru The Night, Instant Karma, Starting Over, Jealous Guy (altho maybe Roxy Music's version was better), even Woman Is The Nigger Of The World. He was much tougher, much edgier, much more willing to push. I like Yoko Ono; her approach to music was what we think of now as very much "art-school," but in the early 1970s it was still very much brand new (certainly to me). I also always liked her other art, which I found to be humorous and rather winsome. She probaby won't go down in history as one of the century's great artists, but she did a lot to popularize more expansive conceptions of art. Whether Lennon would have recorded/performed more with her I couldn't say, but I'd wager she'd have cotinued to be a major influence and collaborator in his songwriting.

Really?

Mark Chapman stole Lennon from his children - at a time when he was just beginning to make it up to Julian. That's a tragedy. Period.

Who cares if he might have outlived his musical talent. The premise of the question is preposterous.

I knew that this would come up BSG...

That's why I was very careful to be specific.

In other words, did Chapman do the music world a favour or a disservice?

I know that what happened was a tragedy for Lennon's family and friends. I just was interested in people's thoughts on what he might have become musically.

So not a preposterous question, just a focused one.

Sue U wrote:

Big RR wrote:Sue--besides Imagine, what are the post-Beatle songs by John you liked. Personally, I think after John's extended lost weekend, and his extended experiment with the kind of crap Yoko was pushing as music, he came out with Double Fantasy to show how he made a musical break with the Yoko garbage (which he featured right along side his music on the album--Yoko came off as kind of like Bjork without the talent). Sure his music was a return to his pop style, but it was also intensively self reflective in the lyrics, especially in Woman and Watching the Wheels). I agree with you that he would have done more and better music had his life not been ended, but I doubt he would have collaborated with Yoko much.

Jeez, I liked just about everything he did post-Beatles better than the Lennon-McCartney stuff. Off the top of my head: Whatever Gets You Thru The Night, Instant Karma, Starting Over, Jealous Guy (altho maybe Roxy Music's version was better), even Woman Is The Nigger Of The World. He was much tougher, much edgier, much more willing to push. I like Yoko Ono; her approach to music was what we think of now as very much "art-school," but in the early 1970s it was still very much brand new (certainly to me). I also always liked her other art, which I found to be humorous and rather winsome. She probaby won't go down in history as one of the century's great artists, but she did a lot to popularize more expansive conceptions of art. Whether Lennon would have recorded/performed more with her I couldn't say, but I'd wager she'd have cotinued to be a major influence and collaborator in his songwriting.

Interesting Sue, I see Whatever...and instant Karma as pretty much a stab at the then-current pop, as was much of the Double Fantasy album (well the Lennon cuts at least); have to listen again to the others to comment on them. IMHO, I think Lennon and McCartney worked well together because they complemented each other, and often took opposite positions to get a good song. We saw what Paul did on his own, and IMHO Lennon was heading for a while toward a career in obscurity with the Plastic Ono Band stuff (maybe avant garde, but not something I cared to listen to), but he began to return his more pop with reflective/meaningful lyrics, by Double Fantasy.

As for Yoko's "music" and "art", to each his/her own.

Treacle? Molasses? Huh?

I didn't care for Lennon after the Beatles don't much care for McCartney post "Fab 4" either.

I think the loss of George Harrison was the greater...

Couldn't stand the Beatles, even less for the solo stuff afterwards.

Guinevere wrote:

And really, I don't see Bono as any kind of problem. I think he's passionate about something and speaks his mind. Good for him. I even still mostly like his music, too

Other than he can't sing anymore. His (U2's) last album was "straining through a cold" vocally.


Don't know why he did it, he should have known better.