And the award for the most woke movie goes too...

[Big RR]

I don't think I did ignore anything in your post because my contention was not that this policy "doesn’t go far enough" nor was I saying that Hollywood must do more (that is another thread); what I was saying is that this is window dressing that will accomplish little to nothing while appearing to be doing something to address the issue; and that is what I call horseshit.

Anyway, I think I have made my point and will not take up additional space explaining it.

[Long Run]

And why would anyone give a flying fuck what Kirstie Alley thinks about anything?

Sexist!! (Ageist? Bootist?)

While this view is right about pretty much any celebrity on most any topic, isn't an actor giving their opinion on movies kind of the one area you might pay attention to what they have to say?

[Scooter]

It's funny that, in trying to make a joke, you mention yet another film that makes my point. In all of the massive crowd scenes in that film, how many non-white faces do you see? it is probably just about one of the whitest movies ever made, and I'm not talking about the shark. Are you going to claim that the quality of the movie would have been irreparably harmed if a few of the people running screaming through the water were Black or Asian? It wouldn't have made any difference to the film at all, but it might have made a big difference in the lives of a few Bkack or Asian actors struggling to get roles, who were, and to some degree still are, completely passed over in casting calls like this. Not out of any malicious intent, but simply because, unless the casting notes explicitly call for non-white actors, casting agents will cast overwhelmingly white without even thinking about it. Which is precisely the sort of unconscious bias that these standards can be used successfully to overcome.

And this assumption that hiring anyone other than white heterosexual men means being forced to compromise on competence is just bullshit. Where does the notion come from, that every white heterosexual man who has ever been hired for a job has been the most qualified? Particularly in Hollywood, where connections and ass kissing mean everything. What, exactly, is wrong with trying to shake up a system where studio executives hire those who are largely a reflection of themselves, or who have some relationship to people who have access to lobby on their behalf (which amounts to the same thing)?

[Scooter]

While this view is right about pretty much any celebrity on most any topic, isn't an actor giving their opinion on movies kind of the one area you might pay attention to what they have to say?

If any of her "acting" had been worth paying attention to, I might have had some interest in what she had to say about acting.

[Big RR]

I disagree, even a bad worker can provide some insight as to the problems at the company. By all means, consider the source, but I think she still has a lot more experience with Hollywood than anyone on this board, male or female, does. Personally, I think her politics may well color her comments more than her personal experiences do, but I won't dismiss them because they're from an actress in the way I might dismiss her views on other issues (say immigration).

[Gob]

And this assumption that hiring anyone other than white heterosexual men means being forced to compromise on competence is just bullshit.

Now, if anyone had ever said that, you may have a point...

[Scooter]

it makes it compulsory for them to hire people to tick boxes, no matter if there are others better than them

So yeah, that's spot on what you were saying.

[MajGenl.Meade]

The Oscars are already on their way to irrelevancy (though they will keep on parading the dead body in hope). Just when it looks as if Trump is getting his deserved thrashing, here come the left liberals driving some voters back to his camp. Heh he. He said "camp". Not my vote. Even though I'm sick of liberal whining and dick-waving, it's still Joe for me.

[Big RR]

So your point is that "liberals" should hold their tongues and refrain from action lest they drive "some voters back to his [Trump's] camp"? That we (and I'll include myself among "them") should just silently stand by and allow Trump to control the conversation and the policies enacted? That even discussing anything possibly controversial should be avoided? That being "not Trump" is a good campaign policy? Hardly seems like a way to win in November.

[TPFKA@W]

If any of her "acting" had been worth paying attention to, I might have had some interest in what she had to say about acting.

She was the superior Savik, though at that time she was cocaine fueled as I recall.

Now she is one of those Scientology oddballs.

[Scooter]

There's that too, which automatically rates ignoring her.

[MajGenl.Meade]

So your point is that "liberals" should hold their tongues and refrain from action lest they drive "some voters back to his [Trump's] camp"? That we (and I'll include myself among "them") should just silently stand by and allow Trump to control the conversation and the policies enacted? That even discussing anything possibly controversial should be avoided? That being "not Trump" is a good campaign policy? Hardly seems like a way to win in November.

That stick must be painful when you sit down, Big RR

[Bicycle Bill]

It's funny that, in trying to make a joke, you mention yet another film that makes my point. In all of the massive crowd scenes in that film, how many non-white faces do you see?

You may want to watch the movie again, Scooter.  Here's a screenshot from the film:



I can see at least a half-dozen of what appears to be 'people of color' trying to scramble out of the water.

Remember too that "Jaws" was set in the fictional NY resort town of Amity and was inspired by either the Hamptons on Long Island or Martha's Vineyard in Massachusetts, according to everything I've heard about the film.  And the fact is that both of these areas are populated and patronized by a demographic that is overwhelmingly white.  Adding more non-whites to the crowd scenes just for the sake of being 'racially inclusive' would be like casting Pete Maravich, Larry Bird, Bob Cousy, Yao Ming, Bill Walton, Kevin McHale, and Jerry West ... the (white) player whose silhouette has been featured in the NBA logo since 1969 ... as members of the Harlem Globetrotters in a movie about that group — ridiculous at best, and pandering to 'political correctness' and this bullshit concept of 'wokeness' at worst.

-"BB"-

[Gob]

it makes it compulsory for them to hire people to tick boxes, no matter if there are others better than them

So yeah, that's spot on what you were saying.

Nope, read again what I wrote.

Horseshit. If they want to be considered for an award, it makes it compulsory for them to hire people to tick boxes, no matter if there are others better than them, due to PC.

Not;

And this assumption that hiring anyone other than white heterosexual men means being forced to compromise on competence is just bullshit.

[Jarlaxle]

It's funny that, in trying to make a joke, you mention yet another film that makes my point. In all of the massive crowd scenes in that film, how many non-white faces do you see?

You may want to watch the movie again, Scooter.  Here's a screenshot from the film:



I can see at least a half-dozen of what appears to be 'people of color' trying to scramble out of the water.

Remember too that "Jaws" was set in the fictional NY resort town of Amity and was inspired by either the Hamptons on Long Island or Martha's Vineyard in Massachusetts, according to everything I've heard about the film.  And the fact is that both of these areas are populated and patronized by a demographic that is overwhelmingly white.  Adding more non-whites to the crowd scenes just for the sake of being 'racially inclusive' would be like casting Pete Maravich, Larry Bird, Bob Cousy, Yao Ming, Bill Walton, Kevin McHale, and Jerry West ... the (white) player whose silhouette has been featured in the NBA logo since 1969 ... as members of the Harlem Globetrotters in a movie about that group — ridiculous at best, and pandering to 'political correctness' and this bullshit concept of 'wokeness' at worst.

-"BB"-

It was also filmed on Martha's Vineyard...I recall many of the extras were locals.

[Scooter]

Bill, I didn't say there were zero non-white faces. That you can say there appear to be six or so non-white faces in a crowd of hundreds pretty much makes my point. And claiming that a fictional town had to be shown as overwhelmingly white for sake of realism (?) is a rather bizarre justification.

[Gob]

How many black people WANTED to be in this scene? How many black people were turned down from being in this scene? How many black people would be comfortable in the water* with this crowd? What is the black demography of the area?


*64 percent of Black/African-American children cannot swim, only 40 percent of Caucasian children cannot swim.

[Scooter]

They couldn't find, say, 20 black people willing to make a few hundred bucks? Because they were too afraid to run in shallow water?

Hey, I wasn't the one who chose this film to try to make a smart ass comment. So sorry that it backfired on you.

ETA - And of course the location in which it was shot contributed to the overwhelmingly white demographic of the film. That was a choice that was made, not out of any intent to exclude non-whites, but which nonetheless meant that they had little to no chance of being cast. Thanks for making my point.

[Big RR]

I'm not sure what your point is Scooter; is it that the director/producer should have chosen the filming location based on the demographics? Or should they have brought in more underrepresented people to the location they chose?

In any event, I don't think that including minorities in crowd scenes is what this policy is designed to address (eta: I realize it says secondary and more minor roles, but I do not think crowds and similar extras are considered roles in the industry--one doesn't even need to be a member of the SAG (or AFTRA) unions to appear in film or TV productions as extras; I think it has much more to do with featured roles. Te extras are just a consequence of where they choose to film, and people neither get exposure nor rich by working as extra. I recall a friend who insisted his daughter had great talent and was destined to become the next big film star; he and his wife spent all their free time driving her to areas where extras were cast. She "appeared" in a number of TV episodes (Law and Order was big as it always films outside scenes in NYC) and a few films, and each appearance only resulted in a loss of money after she was paid and the expenses (traveling to the areas, lunch, etc.) were deducted.

[Scooter]

I'm saying it is an example of how, probably inadvertently, non-white actors never really had a chance of being considered for casting. And no, it wouldn't be something addressed by these standards, but again, it was an example brought by someone else to the discussion, that I chose to run with. But even so, a similar principle can be extended to featured roles: unless scripts and casting notes are written to explicitly call for non-white actors, it is unlikely that they will be cast. That is something that can be addressed by these standards, and it will do nothing but induce producers to broaden the pool of talent from which they have to choose. Something that can only potentially add to the quality of the film, rather than detract from it, whatever the naysayers might think.