Just saw this one

[Lord Jim]

I know The Curse Of Ham:

"May God hate your Pagan Easter Ham!"

[Rick]

Loca, this shouldn't be a new flash --- no one agrees with what you're doing, no one thinks you're in the right, no one is supporting you (don't mistake people's general principles about banning/not banning to be some kind of support for your actions). Please, for the love of god, and for the last time, CUT IT OUT.

Ditto...

[Crackpot]

Meade surely I need not go over such gems as "the mark of Cain" and the "curse of Ham" with you.

Not on my account, no - and not in this thread. Why would you, anyway?

You had asked for examples of theologies that suportid racism etc.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Oooooookay. Genesis 4. Cain hated his brother as long as he was Abel.... (joke). God put a mark on Cain's forehead so that no man would harm Cain.

Ham's son CANAAN (not Ham) was cursed because of Ham's disrespect toward his father, Noah (Gen. 9:25). The Canaanites were to serve the descendants of Shem and Japheth (Gen. 9:26–27; Josh. 9:16–27). Ham had four sons: Cush, Mizraim, Put and Canaan (Gen. 10:6). The tribe of Mizraim settled in Egypt, while the tribes of Cush and Put settled in other parts of Africa. The tribe of Canaan (the one that was cursed) populated Phoenicia and Palestine.

Theology is the study of religious faith, practice, and experience. The Bible is not a study in 'theology' per se but is what is studied in theology. The two stories you cite do not appear to be 'theologies' - just claims to historical events.

I've not heard of any racist theory based on the story of Cain and Abel. Of course it is known that various "Christians" used the Noah/Ham story to justify chattel slavery in the 19th century in particular. Obviously people who did not carefully read the Bible I guess since Canaanites definitely were not in Africa. But they certainly got whacked when the Israelites got to the Promised Land in Exodus etc.

Meade

[Crackpot]

You never heard their "blackness" is their "mark" then?

We are not in disagreement Theology creates systems of belief from what is in religious texts as well as other sources. I use the term to separate Biblical interpretations from what's written in the Bible.

[MajGenl.Meade]

You never heard their "blackness" is their "mark" then?

We are not in disagreement Theology creates systems of belief from what is in religious texts as well as other sources. I use the term to separate Biblical interpretations from what's written in the Bible.

No I never have heard of that - what a strange notion. Yeah OK, well you are right - we're not disagreeing.

I didn't really get your comment about Simon Magus. His salvation is in question because of his desire to continue being the great magician - he had been happy to be described as having the power of God but now he sees that he never did have that power - Peter and John do. Peter rebuked him for trying to buy the gifts of the Holy Spirit with money - from Peter and John - declaring that he has a total misunderstanding of God and that his heart is not right. It is not stated that Simon's belief was genuine and yet shallow (as in Jesus' story of the seeds being sown) but from Peter's reaction one can certainly assume it. Peter after all was there and we were not. Peter tells Simon Magus to repent and pray to the Lord for forgiveness - which is good advice. Simon asks Peter also to pray on his behalf.

Nothing more is said of him in the Bible so I guess we are free to believe that Simon made good or that he didn't get it - the result is not the point of the story which is set following the death of Philip and is part of a sequence dealing with understanding and not understanding who Christ is and what faith means. Simon is one illustration of a wrong idea - but one which can be corrected.

Simon's misunderstanding of course led to the word "simony" coming to mean the practise of buying and selling church offices.

Meade

[Crackpot]

But you have to understand he was coming from a tradition where paying for "magic" was SOP regardless on how you used it. He it is not a far leap that he thought he was making the "respectful" play. Was he wrong? Yes. Did he deserve rebuke? sure. Did he deserve being told that he was likely beond salvation? I really don't think so. What I seee is an opportunity for a "teachable moment" squandered for alot of self righteous grandstanding.

I do see Peters actions as somewhat understandable the tradition he was coming from makes it obvoius that such action is wrong. But, it is wrong to assume that all would have that understanding and if you are to be going out to spread the word of God you should be prepared for people making statements at least as stupid as you yourself had made in the past.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Quite take your point about statements and so on. I don't know that he was told that he was likely beyond salvation - although vs 22 I suppose is what you refer to? Peter is rather abrasive! But it does not seem to have caused Simon to turn away - rather, he responds appropriately. I would have said the teachable part was fulfilled.

22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and supplicate the Lord, if indeed the thought of thy heart may be forgiven thee;
DARBY
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
KJV
22 Repent of this wickedness of yours and pray to the Lord that, if possible, your intention may be forgiven.
NABWRNT
22 Change your heart! Turn away from this evil thing you have done, and pray to the Lord. Maybe he will forgive you for thinking this.
NCV
22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God sif perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
NKJV
22 Repent of your wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive your evil thoughts,
NLT
22 Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.
NRSV

[Crackpot]

Quite take your point about statements and so on. I don't know that he was told that he was likely beyond salvation - although vs 22 I suppose is what you refer to? Peter is rather abrasive! But it does not seem to have caused Simon to turn away - rather, he responds appropriately. I would have said the teachable part was fulfilled.

22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and supplicate the Lord, if indeed the thought of thy heart may be forgiven thee;
DARBY
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
KJV
22 Repent of this wickedness of yours and pray to the Lord that, if possible, your intention may be forgiven.
NABWRNT
22 Change your heart! Turn away from this evil thing you have done, and pray to the Lord. Maybe he will forgive you for thinking this.
NCV
22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God sif perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
NKJV
22 Repent of your wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive your evil thoughts,
NLT
22 Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.
NRSV

Nuff said?

[MajGenl.Meade]

Peter certainly seems uncertain doesn't he? I wonder if he forgot that he (according to the pagan beast of babylon) had the entire forgiveness thing in his own hands?

Teach a man to fish and he can't remember a thing

[Crackpot]

Actually the almighty theologians take Simons response as proof of his ill intent. They say (to the effect of) that Simon obviously doen't care all that much about his salvation because he asks Peter to pray for him (ignoring that Peter just said that his payer might not be successful) instead of praying himself (which is an assumption that he didn't)

cross post

[MajGenl.Meade]

Actually the almighty theologians take Simons response as proof of his ill intent. They say (to the effect of) that Simon obviously doen't care all that much about his salvation because he asks Peter to pray for him (ignoring that Peter just said that his payer might not be successful) instead of praying himself (which is an assumption that he didn't)

Yes Iranaeus for one - not that I'm convinced of his 'almighty' credentials in theology! But many theologians don't say that. They do tend to question whether Simon Magus understood what he professed belief in - which agrees with your point I think. Simon clearly (I would have thought) asks Peter to pray for him on the very ground that he's just witnessed Peter exercising a powerful and special relationship with God. "If you think, Peter" says SM, "that my prayer may not be effective, how about if you put in a good word?"

I agree - it is a false assumption that Simon did not himself care about salvation and did not pray. That's not what the story says. The exact opposite may equally be the case and is, in fact, more likely IMO given SM's request

It's an interesting study - and I may turn it to use in a sermon. Thanks

Meade

[Crackpot]

I'd be honored.

I found this passage both heartening on my path to salvation (it showed that the overzealousness of his follwers is nothing new) and somewhat dishearting (as theology has taken what should be a teachable moment on compasion twards the ones you're witnessing to into a tortured argument on how some do not deserve to be saved.

Understanding the fallability of those who Follow Jesus was a major roadblock in my path to salvation. Seeing that it is nothing new and imprtant enough to record showed an enlightenment more profound than the "perfect " world often claimed b followers.