F-22 Bloodies Its Talons

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datsunaholic
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Re: F-22 Bloodies Its Talons

Post by datsunaholic »

Jarlaxle wrote: Bullshit. The Air Force is still flying B-52s that were built in the Eisenhower administration! The newest A-10 was built in 1984. Most B-1s are over 25 years old. The A-1 Skyraider was in service 30 years.

Apples to orangutans. None of the planes you list are carrier based aircraft. The plane I was talking about- the A-6 Intruder- was carrier based. And most would be pushing 45 years old now, with only a few of the 170 built in the 20-30 year old range. It's the cat shots and the wire traps that wear out Navy birds far faster than an Air Force plane. It's a lot easier to rebuild a big Air Force bomber like the B52 when you don't have to replace the entire airframe. The Navy had bought a bunch of spare wing assemblies for the A-6 (most of which went to waste, though some were repurposed to keep the EA-6B fleet going post-production) but that didn't do anything to address main fuselage fatigue. Note that the Navy has already completely phased out the F-14, built at the same time as the F-15 which the Air Force still uses. And the Navy is already replacing early model F/A-18 Hornets with Super Hornets (which are not really the same plane, they just look similar) though the bulk is supposed to be replaced by F35s. The Navy has put a lifespan on the F/A-18 at under 100,000 flight hours, which quite a few have already gotten near.

The Air Force has attempted to replace the B-52 multiple times- first with the B-70 Valkyrie, mostly due to cost, then the B-1, due to unreliability, and the B-2, again due to cost. Originally the Air Force only envisioned a 10-15 year airframe life for the B-52, and the B and C models were retired right on schedule. At the time, new designs were getting put into production about every 5 years. That ended with the B-52. They had no new bird to replace the retiring ones. Since they'd built a huge number of G and H models, that didn't matter much in the 1960s, but now with less than 100 H models left (all the others having been scrapped) and STILL no viable replacement, it's just old hat to keep refurbishing them. Been doing so since the 1970s, when the NEWEST B-52 had reached their intended design life end.

The B-1B is another story. It's construction pretty much precludes the massive rebuilds that the B-52 has undergone (well, you could do it, be very expensive), and they'll leave service long before the last B-52 is retired. Hell, I expect the B52 will long outlive the B-2, for the same reason, though the Air Force says otherwise. In both cases, though, the planes were designed for much longer lifespans than the B-52s original 10-15 year one. Plus they've flown fewer missions than planes did back in Vietnam. The B-1B's only real advantage nowadays is that it's the least expensive, in terms of dollars per flight hours, of any of the 3 large bombers. But it's still a very maintenance intensive aircraft.

The A-10 is a good plane and there is no REAL reason to retire it except to free up budget for the F35 which can't do the A-10's job half as well as the A-10 can. It's just that the F35 can do several other jobs "adequately" (so they say) and the Military's bean counters say one plane doing 3 jobs is better than 3 planes doing one job each.

As for the A-1, I can't really say why a piston prop plane lasted so long into the jet age except that no suitable replacement had been built. It was a stout bird with good survivability. The Navy replaced it with the A-6, but it took a while to build up enough inventory. The newest airframes were only 16 years old when the US retired them, and Gabon retired them finally in 1985. But heck, the Dominican Air Force kept the P-51 Mustang in service until 1984.
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Jarlaxle
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Re: F-22 Bloodies Its Talons

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Yes, actually, the A-1 WAS, in fact, carrier-based! (The "Spad" replaced the SB2C Helldiver.)
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Bicycle Bill
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Re: F-22 Bloodies Its Talons

Post by Bicycle Bill »

datsunaholic wrote:The A-10 is a good plane and there is no REAL reason to retire it except to free up budget for the F35 which can't do the A-10's job half as well as the A-10 can. It's just that the F35 can do several other jobs "adequately" (so they say) and the Military's bean counters say one plane doing 3 jobs is better than 3 planes doing one job each.
That may be OK for the bean counters, but there's a phrase about "the right tool for the job"; there's also an old saying about being "a jack of all trades but the master of none".  It's the same reason you hire a plumber to work on your pipes rather than some guy who does roofing but also happens to own a pipe wrench.  Sure, he may do an adequate job.  But if I'm the grunt on the ground who calls in CAS, I hope like hell that they send planes that can do the job and do it right the first time rather than the newest 'gee-whiz' aircraft that may or may not accomplish what it set out to do.
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datsunaholic
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Re: F-22 Bloodies Its Talons

Post by datsunaholic »

Jarlaxle wrote:Yes, actually, the A-1 WAS, in fact, carrier-based! (The "Spad" replaced the SB2C Helldiver.)
Yeah, I messed that one up. I researched the A-1 AFTER I wrote the first sentence, because I didn't even know what the Skyraider was.
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Fafhrd
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Re: F-22 Bloodies Its Talons

Post by Fafhrd »

When I was in the USN, it wasn't the A-1, it was the AD. We used to see them practicing toss bombing from the airfield at Gitmo.

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Re: F-22 Bloodies Its Talons

Post by MG McAnick »

There was an article in my local newspaper a few weeks ago about a 25 year old pilot flying a B-52 that was nearly twice his age. There are some jobs that no other plane is suited to. The planes have been re-winged and in some cases rebuilt from virtually the ground up. It's hard to keep a good plane down. They don't make 'em like they used to. They used to keep BUFFs at the local AFB. We still see one once in a while, along with about anything else a 40 year-old KC-135 can refuel. The long awaited KC-46 will soon be based here.

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kmccune
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Re: F-22 Bloodies Its Talons

Post by kmccune »

Had the good fortune of seeing a flight of these things headed somewhere once, you can tell they are big, even at altitude :ok

Fafhrd
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Re: F-22 Bloodies Its Talons

Post by Fafhrd »

Buffs don't take off like modern jet aircraft do, as with that bicycle landing gear, they can't rotate and head for the sky. Instead, they take off gently, and don't seem to go UP the way airliners do. Langley AFB is a fighter base, but has ACC headquarters, so an occasional Buff comes by. I've been gone 20 years now, but I bet an occasional B-1 or B-2 come in, too. Currently, they have two F-22 squadrons. At one time they had four F-15 squadrons (three in a fighter wing, plus one air defense squadron).

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Re: F-22 Bloodies Its Talons

Post by MG McAnick »

BUFFs were pretty good at flying without a tail too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJuEAQbxWRo
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