Pardon my lack of details, but I read an article last week on the demise of the engineer who was considered responsible for the basic design of the 911, a design that has basically endured for many decades. The writer was effusive in his praise for the car and designer.
But is this truly a great car? NOBODY in their right mind would design a car today (or even 40 years ago) with the engine in the back. Nobody in their right mind would design a high-performance car with an air-cooled engine. If it was such a great design, how come nobody copied it? Shit, the Japanese copy EVERYTHING, and even they could see that rear-engine and water cooling were stupid.
Parenthetically, when Porsche was contracted by Harley Davidson to design the new engine for what turned out to be the V-Rod, it was Porsche telling H-D that they refused to design an air-cooled engine, because it would be technologically obsolete from Day 1. And at the time the 911 was still air-cooled.
The 911 was a frightening car to drive at speed when Porsche first started ramping up the HP (the original 911's were dogs). Maintenance cost was horrible. The only way you could make them last for a tolerable interval between engine rebuilds was to run top quality oil - changing it frequently - and adding an aftermarket oil cooler. And the only way they tamed the handling was by putting humungous tires in back, to keep it from literally life-threatening oversteer. Current models use ultra-sophisticated traction control, stability control, king's ransom tires, and anti-lock brakes to keep the damn things planted - otherwise they would still be dangerous when driven hard.
This is not a great design, but rather a great feat of increasingly superior engineering to make a fundamentally flawed design perform at the highest level. The 944, 928, Cayman/Boxter, and now the Panamera are all designs that are far superior to the 911, but don't appeal to the masochistic "traditionalists" who insist on driving something that is unique and traditionally "Porsche."
Just my opinion, of course.
Porsche 911: a Great Car?
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
Actually, a properly-maintained Porsche is, surprisingly, absolutely bulletproof. A well-maintained air cooled 911 is a 200,000+ miler. A 944 will wind up 300k.
Treat Gaza like Carthage.
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
Which speaks volumes.Just my opinion, of course.
Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.
yrs,
rubato
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Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
Who cares? It's ugly.
Now THIS is a sports car:
Now THIS is a sports car:
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
A well-maintained ANYTHING is absolutely bulletproof. People take care of Porsche's because they are a huge investment that they need to protect. If you maintained a Chevy Cavalier, from new, with the same diligence that you MUST maintain a 911, it would last just as long.
How many manufacturers are making horizontally-opposed, air-cooled engines these days?
Rear engined cars?
People say the same sort of thing about Harley-Davidson's, and the same principles apply. If you maintain it (this expensive piece of obsolete machinery) properly, it will last forever. So what? It's still obsolete.
How many manufacturers are making horizontally-opposed, air-cooled engines these days?
Rear engined cars?
People say the same sort of thing about Harley-Davidson's, and the same principles apply. If you maintain it (this expensive piece of obsolete machinery) properly, it will last forever. So what? It's still obsolete.
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
You hate Porsches.
BFD
BFD
Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.
yrs,
rubato
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
How can you hate Porsche's? The Cayman/Boxter is a masterpiece, The Panamera is great. The 944/968 was a fantastic car.
But the 911 (like the Harley Davidson) is an obsolete car that is a huge sales success and money-maker for the company, because the people who buy them are more concerned with the "image" that it projects than actually driving a superior car. The German engineers have managed to make it into a top performer IN SPITE of its horrible basic design, and that's a tribute to them, but the car belongs in a museum, not on the road.
And all of the same things can be said about every Harley except the V-Rod (engine by Porsche). Obsolete junk that people pay a premium for, because they just don't care.
What prompted this thread was seeing enormous kudos heaped on the original designer of the 911, which, even when it was conceived, was obsolete.
As time goes by, more and more superior supercars are being built by manufacturers around the world. People who buy 911's are fools.
But the 911 (like the Harley Davidson) is an obsolete car that is a huge sales success and money-maker for the company, because the people who buy them are more concerned with the "image" that it projects than actually driving a superior car. The German engineers have managed to make it into a top performer IN SPITE of its horrible basic design, and that's a tribute to them, but the car belongs in a museum, not on the road.
And all of the same things can be said about every Harley except the V-Rod (engine by Porsche). Obsolete junk that people pay a premium for, because they just don't care.
What prompted this thread was seeing enormous kudos heaped on the original designer of the 911, which, even when it was conceived, was obsolete.
As time goes by, more and more superior supercars are being built by manufacturers around the world. People who buy 911's are fools.
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
No, RICH................dave. 
Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.
yrs,
rubato
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
Define "Obsolete"
from this article -
"The Porsche 911 proved both an immediate and enduring hit, and the company has never replaced it, instead allowing the car to evolve over almost half a century. In spite of myriad design tweaks and updates in parts and technology, it remains an unmistakable descendant of F. A. Porsche’s original vision. Now in its seventh iteration, and starting at more than $80,000 for the least expensive version, the car remains a symbol of luxury, stellar engineering and sex appeal."
from this article -
"The Porsche 911 proved both an immediate and enduring hit, and the company has never replaced it, instead allowing the car to evolve over almost half a century. In spite of myriad design tweaks and updates in parts and technology, it remains an unmistakable descendant of F. A. Porsche’s original vision. Now in its seventh iteration, and starting at more than $80,000 for the least expensive version, the car remains a symbol of luxury, stellar engineering and sex appeal."
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
dgs..............this is for YOU!
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/31/meet ... 1-collect/Like it or not, we're all guilty of falling into the traps laid for us by stereotypes. For example, if we were to say the phrase "Porsche owner," odds are you'd have a very specific type of individual in mind... and that individual would likely look nothing like Magnus Walker.
Walker is a thoroughbred car guy with an incomparable passion for the 911. As a clothing entrepreneur, he's about as far from the typical 911 owner as it gets. When he isn't racing or designing, he's piecing old Porsche models back together for another shot at life.
His stated goal is to collect one of every 911 between built between 1964 and 1973, and so far, he's only missing the youngest of that group. Walker says he's owned over 40 of the cars in his time as a collector, and it's clear he has the kind of passion that keeps this industry spinning.
<snip>
Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.
yrs,
rubato
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
"Obsolete": Employing technology that is no longer employed in the relevant industry.
Rear-wheel drive. Obsolete. No competent sports car designer in the past 60 years would even dream of starting a new design with a rear-engine design. The inherent risk of catastrophic oversteer leading to collisions would frighten insurers away.
Horizontally-opposed engines. Obsolete. Water cooling has made boxer engines obsolete. The temperature delta from one cylinder to another renders it impossible to optimize engine clearances. Thus, they require rebuilding or replacement at a frequency that is no longer tolerable.
Water cooled internal combustion engines for automobiles. Obsolete. When did the 911 finally admit defeat and go to water cooling? Last week?
As I said above, the Porsche engineers are to be commended for devising sophisticated traction and stability controls to make this a reasonably safe car. Also, they have extracted tremendous performance out of a basically poor design, although at ridiculous cost.
Imagine what they could have done if they had put the same amount of resources to work on a modern design.
One might say that "boxer" engines are not totally obsolete because Subaru employs them, but in typical Japanese fashion they were only adopted by Subaru originally because they copied VW and Porsche.
Rear-wheel drive. Obsolete. No competent sports car designer in the past 60 years would even dream of starting a new design with a rear-engine design. The inherent risk of catastrophic oversteer leading to collisions would frighten insurers away.
Horizontally-opposed engines. Obsolete. Water cooling has made boxer engines obsolete. The temperature delta from one cylinder to another renders it impossible to optimize engine clearances. Thus, they require rebuilding or replacement at a frequency that is no longer tolerable.
Water cooled internal combustion engines for automobiles. Obsolete. When did the 911 finally admit defeat and go to water cooling? Last week?
As I said above, the Porsche engineers are to be commended for devising sophisticated traction and stability controls to make this a reasonably safe car. Also, they have extracted tremendous performance out of a basically poor design, although at ridiculous cost.
Imagine what they could have done if they had put the same amount of resources to work on a modern design.
One might say that "boxer" engines are not totally obsolete because Subaru employs them, but in typical Japanese fashion they were only adopted by Subaru originally because they copied VW and Porsche.
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
Rear wheel drive is obsolete now?
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
All of Subaru's four-cylinder engines (except the EN series) are liquid-cooled, horizontally opposed boxer four-strokes.
Subaru’s 2.5 litre turbocharged engine has won an International Engine of the Year Award for the second time in three years.
The four-cylinder boxer turbo that powers the new generation Impreza WRX and Forester XT, won the 2.0 to 2.5 litre class in the awards, announced this week at the Engine Expo in Stuttgart, Germany.
The story behind the Impreza’s success is best told by the raw statistics: six World Rally Championship titles and 46 outright rally wins.
Subaru’s 2.5 litre turbocharged engine has won an International Engine of the Year Award for the second time in three years.
The four-cylinder boxer turbo that powers the new generation Impreza WRX and Forester XT, won the 2.0 to 2.5 litre class in the awards, announced this week at the Engine Expo in Stuttgart, Germany.
The story behind the Impreza’s success is best told by the raw statistics: six World Rally Championship titles and 46 outright rally wins.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
some people should do some research before caliming things are obsolete
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_engine
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
Then again it would ruin my plan for my new website shit Dave-mort says
Last edited by Crackpot on Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:04 am
"Obsolete": Employing technology that is no longer employed in the relevant industry.
Rear-wheel drive. Obsolete. No competent sports car designer in the past 60 years would even dream of starting a new design with a rear-engine design. The inherent risk of catastrophic oversteer leading to collisions would frighten insurers away.I believe you mean to say rear-engine design. Are all Porsches "obsolete" by that standard? If so, you must include Ferrari, Lamborghini, Lotus, and possibly others.
Horizontally-opposed engines. Obsolete. Water cooling has made boxer engines obsolete. Subaru doesn't think so
The temperature delta from one cylinder to another renders it impossible to optimize engine clearances. Thus, they require rebuilding or replacement at a frequency that is no longer tolerable. I'd be very interested in seeing any data on this subject.
Water cooled internal combustion engines for automobiles. Obsolete. When did the 911 finally admit defeat and go to water cooling? Last week? No, about a dozen years ago
As I said above, the Porsche engineers are to be commended for devising sophisticated traction and stability controls to make this a reasonably safe car. Also, they have extracted tremendous performance out of a basically poor design, although at ridiculous cost.
For a "poor design" the 911 based machinery has won literally hundreds of motorsports events.
Imagine what they could have done if they had put the same amount of resources to work on a modern design.
Like the Cayman/Boxster?
One might say that "boxer" engines are not totally obsolete because Subaru employs them, but in typical Japanese fashion they were only adopted by Subaru originally because they copied VW and Porsche. And many aircraft builders.
"Obsolete": Employing technology that is no longer employed in the relevant industry.
Rear-wheel drive. Obsolete. No competent sports car designer in the past 60 years would even dream of starting a new design with a rear-engine design. The inherent risk of catastrophic oversteer leading to collisions would frighten insurers away.I believe you mean to say rear-engine design. Are all Porsches "obsolete" by that standard? If so, you must include Ferrari, Lamborghini, Lotus, and possibly others.
Horizontally-opposed engines. Obsolete. Water cooling has made boxer engines obsolete. Subaru doesn't think so
The temperature delta from one cylinder to another renders it impossible to optimize engine clearances. Thus, they require rebuilding or replacement at a frequency that is no longer tolerable. I'd be very interested in seeing any data on this subject.
Water cooled internal combustion engines for automobiles. Obsolete. When did the 911 finally admit defeat and go to water cooling? Last week? No, about a dozen years ago
As I said above, the Porsche engineers are to be commended for devising sophisticated traction and stability controls to make this a reasonably safe car. Also, they have extracted tremendous performance out of a basically poor design, although at ridiculous cost.
For a "poor design" the 911 based machinery has won literally hundreds of motorsports events.
Imagine what they could have done if they had put the same amount of resources to work on a modern design.
Like the Cayman/Boxster?
One might say that "boxer" engines are not totally obsolete because Subaru employs them, but in typical Japanese fashion they were only adopted by Subaru originally because they copied VW and Porsche. And many aircraft builders.
Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.
yrs,
rubato
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
No, wrong! Don't care how well you maintain it, you will not see 200,000 miles from a Mazda RX7 turbo without a rebuilt engine!dgs49 wrote:A well-maintained ANYTHING is absolutely bulletproof.
No, actually, it would fall apart...they EARNED the nickname "Crapalier".People take care of Porsche's because they are a huge investment that they need to protect. If you maintained a Chevy Cavalier, from new, with the same diligence that you MUST maintain a 911, it would last just as long.
None in the last 15 years. (Last AC 911 was 1997.)How many manufacturers are making horizontally-opposed, air-cooled engines these days?
Treat Gaza like Carthage.
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
Right: I wrote rear-wheel drive when I meant to write "rear engine."
From the Wiki Article: "A rear wheel drive, rear engine car tends to be prone to oversteer which allows for tighter turner radius than that of a neutral or understeer condition of a vehicle, however this causes vehicle instability. For this reason rear engine has been abandoned as a design option regular passenger car..."
Is that another way of saying it's OBSO-FUCKING-LETE?
Like air-cooling?
As for the opposed (boxer) engine, there are how-many car manufacturers in the world? At least 50 of them. And exactly ONE (1) of them has decided to go forward with boxer engines. Subaru.
They may be fine for aircraft, and they can be adapted for a motorcycle, but again, NOBODY designing a new car OR motorcycle today would even consider starting with a boxer engine. It is obsolete for those applications.
The fact that you can produce some level of success with a design does not prove that it is not obsolete. There are Harley Davidson's winning drag races every week with engines that are turning out close to 200hp. Still obsolete.
From the Wiki Article: "A rear wheel drive, rear engine car tends to be prone to oversteer which allows for tighter turner radius than that of a neutral or understeer condition of a vehicle, however this causes vehicle instability. For this reason rear engine has been abandoned as a design option regular passenger car..."
Is that another way of saying it's OBSO-FUCKING-LETE?
Like air-cooling?
As for the opposed (boxer) engine, there are how-many car manufacturers in the world? At least 50 of them. And exactly ONE (1) of them has decided to go forward with boxer engines. Subaru.
They may be fine for aircraft, and they can be adapted for a motorcycle, but again, NOBODY designing a new car OR motorcycle today would even consider starting with a boxer engine. It is obsolete for those applications.
The fact that you can produce some level of success with a design does not prove that it is not obsolete. There are Harley Davidson's winning drag races every week with engines that are turning out close to 200hp. Still obsolete.
Re: Porsche 911: a Great Car?
I believe it's a way of saying that a regular passenger car would not be designed like a Porsche 911.dgs49 wrote:Right: I wrote rear-wheel drive when I meant to write "rear engine."
From the Wiki Article: "A rear wheel drive, rear engine car tends to be prone to oversteer which allows for tighter turner radius than that of a neutral or understeer condition of a vehicle, however this causes vehicle instability. For this reason rear engine has been abandoned as a design option regular passenger car..."
Is that another way of saying it's OBSO-FUCKING-LETE?
The fact that in you're opinion something is obsolete does not prove that it's obsolete.dgs49 wrote:The fact that you can produce some level of success with a design does not prove that it is not obsolete
Obsolete = Adjective: No longer produced or used; out of date.