The future of medicine.

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Darren
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The future of medicine.

Post by Darren »

There's promising potential for new treatments for autoimmune diseases in the very near future due to DNA sequencing. Before DNA analysis if you couldn't ID bacteria by culturing it, it couldn't be identified. That's changed. Now the 100 trillion microbiota that live in, on or around each individuals trillion human cells are subject to study.

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/29/microbi ... eries.html
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Burning Petard
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Re: The future of medicine.

Post by Burning Petard »

Auto-immune disorders have been connected with a range of disease and symptoms. Everything from arthritis to lupus. Is the quoted expert about the potential impact of cheaper, faster DNA identification hinting that auto-immune diseases are actually the immune system fighting a particular bacteria in the body?

And by the way, there is another process of bacteria identification that is sort of reverse culturing. The sample bacteria is inserted into a tube with various chambers, each filled with different growth media and/or antibiotics. You inspect the chambers where it did NOT grow after 24 hours and check a chart that gives you the particular bug that is killed by all these conditions.

snailgate

Darren
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Re: The future of medicine.

Post by Darren »

Burning Petard wrote:Auto-immune disorders have been connected with a range of disease and symptoms. Everything from arthritis to lupus. Is the quoted expert about the potential impact of cheaper, faster DNA identification hinting that auto-immune diseases are actually the immune system fighting a particular bacteria in the body?

And by the way, there is another process of bacteria identification that is sort of reverse culturing. The sample bacteria is inserted into a tube with various chambers, each filled with different growth media and/or antibiotics. You inspect the chambers where it did NOT grow after 24 hours and check a chart that gives you the particular bug that is killed by all these conditions.

snailgate
I don't know of a specific expert. The body of knowledge is growing too rapidly yet for designated experts. Everyone's gut biome is different. Studies are showing correlations between bacteria and autoimmune diseases. That means by altering the gut biome there's a chance of curing autoimmune diseases.
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ex-khobar Andy
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Re: The future of medicine.

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Burning Petard wrote:
And by the way, there is another process of bacteria identification that is sort of reverse culturing. The sample bacteria is inserted into a tube with various chambers, each filled with different growth media and/or antibiotics. You inspect the chambers where it did NOT grow after 24 hours and check a chart that gives you the particular bug that is killed by all these conditions.

snailgate
I think you are talking about API (analytical profile index) which is a system of convenient biochemical tests in separate chambers. But this still requires culturing to get enough of a bacterial population to react with the biochemistries. Most useful for speciation: so for example if you are looking for listeria which exists as many distinct species, you can do a presumptive test for generic listeria; then if that is positive, subject that culture to API testing to find out if it is L monocytogenes (the pathogenic listeria) or another less harmful type of listeria.

DNA testing is very useful but polymerase chain reaction (PCR) testing which multiplies the DNA content to a detectable level still requires you to know what you are looking for so you can put the appropriate primers in place. This can be much faster than traditional serological culturing but it is still limited in that sense.

Burning Petard
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Re: The future of medicine.

Post by Burning Petard »

I was always working with E. Coli. Snailgate.

Darren
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Re: The future of medicine.

Post by Darren »

Multiple Sclerosis and bacteria: http://amp.fox9.com/news/272619319-story
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Darren
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Re: The future of medicine.

Post by Darren »

Thank you RBG wherever you are!

Darren
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Re: The future of medicine.

Post by Darren »

Gut bacteria and rheumatoid arthritis: https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases ... 071116.php
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RayThom
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The future of medicine

Post by RayThom »

Gut bacteria and rheumatoid arthritis: https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases ... 071116.php
The gut gut biome and sarcoidosis: https://sarcoidosisnews.com/2016/08/15/ ... icrobiota/
Multiple Sclerosis and bacteria: http://amp.fox9.com/news/272619319-story "
Darren, what autoimmune disease have you been diagnosed with? Whatever type, I get the feeling you're trying to treat it homeopathically with methods not yet fully researched nor understood. As with all autoimmune disease, by the time they are diagnosed it is too late for a cure, only control.
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Darren
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Re: The future of medicine.

Post by Darren »

RayThom wrote:
Gut bacteria and rheumatoid arthritis: https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases ... 071116.php
The gut gut biome and sarcoidosis: https://sarcoidosisnews.com/2016/08/15/ ... icrobiota/
Multiple Sclerosis and bacteria: http://amp.fox9.com/news/272619319-story "
Darren, what autoimmune disease have you been diagnosed with? Whatever type, I get the feeling you're trying to treat it homeopathically with methods not yet fully researched nor understood. As with all autoimmune disease, by the time they are diagnosed it is too late for a cure, only control.
None, Ray. After my recent visits to the VA my few issues have been taken care of including surgery for a double hernia. A friend has multiple issues including MS & RA. They have a unique medical history that astounds doctors at the VA. They also earned a DVM, PhD in immuniopathology and later earned an MS in nursing. We've been collaborating in a sense in searching out info on autoimmune issues. One of the supplements, R Lipoic Acid was vetted by a VA study for MS. Due to the medications, my friend has to be careful about supplements due to possible contraindications that are difficult to find in the literature. Between the German Commission E Monographs (the definitive medical source for herbal info) and the herbal PDR some info is available. The common factor in autoimmune diseases seems to be the gut biome. Scientists are finding some very interesting links. In may ways it's like working a puzzle. That's why I think it's the future of medicine instead of the pharmaceuticals on parade which have prevailed for some time.
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BoSoxGal
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Re: The future of medicine.

Post by BoSoxGal »

My health was never the same after a course of Cipro I was given for a giardia infection I contracted from brushing my teeth with tap water at a friend’s family camp in northern Maine where, unbeknownst to me, the water in the pipes came straight from the lake. The Cipro totally wiped out my healthy gut biome along with the giardia. Since then I’ve read frightening things about Cipro, and realize I am lucky I wasn’t permanently damaged in other ways.

Anyway, add to that two major abdominal surgeries with broad spectrum prophylactic antibiotics and my natural gut biome was entirely destroyed, leaving me incredibly vulnerable at the same time I was experiencing profound stress in both professional and personal life = boom! Autoimmune disease, my new reality for the rest of my life.

I believe that the natural gut biome that begins establishing in the womb is one of the most important aspects of health and further medical studies will bear that out definitively. Our overuse of antibiotics, not just prescribed to every whiny parent with a sick kid but also pumped into the animals we eat, is damaging our gut biomes and making us very sick - same as the residual pesticides in the grains and plants we eat, which kill the good bugs in our guts.

I’ll never be able to rebuild the healthy gut biome that kept me going strong for 30 years until Cipro wiped it out. If I’d understood what that superantibiotic would do to me long-term, I would’ve happily suffered the discomfort associated with natural course of giardia and relied on my own healthy immune system to knock out the parasites. Instead the aftermath of that Memorial Day weekend oral hygiene mistake haunts me forever.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

Darren
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Re: The future of medicine.

Post by Darren »

BoSoxGal wrote:My health was never the same after a course of Cipro I was given for a giardia infection I contracted from brushing my teeth with tap water at a friend’s family camp in northern Maine where, unbeknownst to me, the water in the pipes came straight from the lake. The Cipro totally wiped out my healthy gut biome along with the giardia. Since then I’ve read frightening things about Cipro, and realize I am lucky I wasn’t permanently damaged in other ways.

Anyway, add to that two major abdominal surgeries with broad spectrum prophylactic antibiotics and my natural gut biome was entirely destroyed, leaving me incredibly vulnerable at the same time I was experiencing profound stress in both professional and personal life = boom! Autoimmune disease, my new reality for the rest of my life.

I believe that the natural gut biome that begins establishing in the womb is one of the most important aspects of health and further medical studies will bear that out definitively. Our overuse of antibiotics, not just prescribed to every whiny parent with a sick kid but also pumped into the animals we eat, is damaging our gut biomes and making us very sick - same as the residual pesticides in the grains and plants we eat, which kill the good bugs in our guts.

I’ll never be able to rebuild the healthy gut biome that kept me going strong for 30 years until Cipro wiped it out. If I’d understood what that superantibiotic would do to me long-term, I would’ve happily suffered the discomfort associated with natural course of giardia and relied on my own healthy immune system to knock out the parasites. Instead the aftermath of that Memorial Day weekend oral hygiene mistake haunts me forever.
From what I've read the natural development of the gut biome is as important as you say. Don't give up on altering/restoring your biome. People like you are doing that now. That's why I titled this thread.
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RayThom
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The future of medicine

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BoSoxGal wrote:... Anyway, add to that two major abdominal surgeries with broad spectrum prophylactic antibiotics...
Hoping not to sound too much like the old guy with a "can you top this" medical condition story, along the way I have had a vagotomy in '73 and a partial gastrectomy in '75 (for bleeding ulcers) and a splenectomy in '88 (car crash trauma.)

I feel fairly certain that my gut biome was compromised with the stomach surgeries, however, it wasn't until my spleen was removed that my immune system went to hell. I started to feel "different" shortly thereafter and three years later I was diagnosed with pulmonary sarcoidosis.

I later found out that sarcoid granuloma takes somewhere between fifteen to twenty years to manifest itself so it would seem that the ulcer surgeries were the genesis of my chronic health problems. Also, at the time of my gastrectomy the eleven units of 'O+' blood needed were not extensively screened like they are today. That's how I contracted Hep-C that caused some slight liver damage, of which I was cured only two years ago.

Whereas there are many Rx drugs and holistic remedies on the market to treat sarcoidosis I avoid them all because the side effects cause more problems that the disease itself. The most prescribed drug for immunological disease is the steroidal drug, Prednisone, which causes obesity, and subsequent heart disease and LDL.

I manage through proper dieting, and I exercise as best as possible within the limits of my pulmonary paralysis. My illness doesn't define me, it gives me purpose. My life may not be great but to paraphrase Menander, I live, not as I wish to, but as I can.

Life is good.
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“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.” 

Darren
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Re: The future of medicine.

Post by Darren »

RayThom wrote:
BoSoxGal wrote:... Anyway, add to that two major abdominal surgeries with broad spectrum prophylactic antibiotics...
Hoping not to sound too much like the old guy with a "can you top this" medical condition story, along the way I have had a vagotomy in '73 and a partial gastrectomy in '75 (for bleeding ulcers) and a splenectomy in '88 (car crash trauma.)

I feel fairly certain that my gut biome was compromised with the stomach surgeries, however, it wasn't until my spleen was removed that my immune system went to hell. I started to feel "different" shortly thereafter and three years later I was diagnosed with pulmonary sarcoidosis.

I later found out that sarcoid granuloma takes somewhere between fifteen to twenty years to manifest itself so it would seem that the ulcer surgeries were the genesis of my chronic health problems. Also, at the time of my gastrectomy the eleven units of 'O+' blood needed were not extensively screened like they are today. That's how I contracted Hep-C that caused some slight liver damage, of which I was cured only two years ago.

Whereas there are many Rx drugs and holistic remedies on the market to treat sarcoidosis I avoid them all because the side effects cause more problems that the disease itself. The most prescribed drug for immunological disease is the steroidal drug, Prednisone, which causes obesity, and subsequent heart disease and LDL.

I manage through proper dieting, and I exercise as best as possible within the limits of my pulmonary paralysis. My illness doesn't define me, it gives me purpose. My life may not be great but to paraphrase Menander, I live, not as I wish to, but as I can.

Life is good.
Too bad the work on the bacterial cause of ulcers started in the early 80's and even after proven wasn't accepted by the medical community. Prednisone is nasty. We're trying an enzyme, serrapeptase, as a substitute to eliminate the pain due to inflammation. I used bromelain similarly twenty years ago to fix a joint problem after an MD told me I'd have the issue for life. Thankfully the Iron Man contestants knew something he and I didn't.
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BoSoxGal
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Re: The future of medicine.

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I am avoiding the Big Pharma approach to healing myself as much as possible, though I do take antidepressants because at the moment I don’t think I could stave off suicidal ideation without them - I’ve tried and always end up getting dragged down by the black dog. I take migraine meds as needed and ibuprofen or acetaminophen for pain, plus a daily low dose aspirin for my heart.

From what I have researched, none of the MS meds are effective enough to be worth the awful side effects, especially as thus far my worst symptoms are very intermittent. I’ve read a lot about MS folks healing themselves with food - not curing, but vastly improving symptoms - including Dr. Terry Wahl who has written a book about her journey from wheelchair to riding bikes again by following a diet that boosts natural immunity.

I’ve reduced my stress level a great deal and am working on getting regular with walking, yoga, weight training and some meditation - things I wish I’d made time for over the past 25 years to preserve my health. I take probiotics off and on, try to eat fermented foods at least once a week, eat roughage for my gut bugs and work at limiting sugar which is terrible both for gut flora and inflammation. I’ve also - on advice of a microbiologist friend - made a point of drinking very tiny amounts of Atlantic Ocean water the past few summers that I visited here and now that I live here. I grew up swimming in the Atlantic from when I was a baby, and ingested the water regularly in small amounts - and, the ocean’s microbiome is very like the natural condition of the undamaged human gut, so I hope this will help to repair mine.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsci ... eness/amp/

I avoid antibiotics as much as possible, which was a big reason for giving up all land meats and dairy. I do occasionally consume wild caught seafood, but never farmed as they are raised in disgusting, diseased conditions.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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RayThom
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The future of medicine

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BoSoxGal wrote:I am avoiding the Big Pharma approach to healing myself as much as possible...
Have you tried experimenting with a daily zinc supplement -- maybe 25/50mg dosage? I was having frequent lower esophageal sphincter dysfunction (achalasia) for years but since going on a regimen of zinc (along with B-12, and levothyroxin for hypothyroidism) my stomach has felt much more relaxed. I'm still eating slowly but I no longer have the fear of a 'lockup' episode.

Hey, I'm just bouncing ideas around but you never know until you try. This seems to be working for me even though there is not a lot of science behind it.
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Darren
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Re: The future of medicine.

Post by Darren »

BoSoxGal wrote:I am avoiding the Big Pharma approach to healing myself as much as possible, though I do take antidepressants because at the moment I don’t think I could stave off suicidal ideation without them - I’ve tried and always end up getting dragged down by the black dog. I take migraine meds as needed and ibuprofen or acetaminophen for pain, plus a daily low dose aspirin for my heart.

From what I have researched, none of the MS meds are effective enough to be worth the awful side effects, especially as thus far my worst symptoms are very intermittent. I’ve read a lot about MS folks healing themselves with food - not curing, but vastly improving symptoms - including Dr. Terry Wahl who has written a book about her journey from wheelchair to riding bikes again by following a diet that boosts natural immunity.

I’ve reduced my stress level a great deal and am working on getting regular with walking, yoga, weight training and some meditation - things I wish I’d made time for over the past 25 years to preserve my health. I take probiotics off and on, try to eat fermented foods at least once a week, eat roughage for my gut bugs and work at limiting sugar which is terrible both for gut flora and inflammation. I’ve also - on advice of a microbiologist friend - made a point of drinking very tiny amounts of Atlantic Ocean water the past few summers that I visited here and now that I live here. I grew up swimming in the Atlantic from when I was a baby, and ingested the water regularly in small amounts - and, the ocean’s microbiome is very like the natural condition of the undamaged human gut, so I hope this will help to repair mine.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsci ... eness/amp/

I avoid antibiotics as much as possible, which was a big reason for giving up all land meats and dairy. I do occasionally consume wild caught seafood, but never farmed as they are raised in disgusting, diseased conditions.
The probiotics and prebiotics (fermented foods) support the bacteria you need for good health. Eating fermented foods more often is better. That's the route to "reshuffling" the biome to increase the beneficial bacteria. Keep in mind stomach acid with the exception of the mucosal layer kills most bacteria. That's why food which passes into the intestines is key. Unless you can find something with an enteric coating that will pass through the stomach intact.
Thank you RBG wherever you are!

Darren
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Re: The future of medicine

Post by Darren »

RayThom wrote:
BoSoxGal wrote:I am avoiding the Big Pharma approach to healing myself as much as possible...
Have you tried experimenting with a daily zinc supplement -- maybe 25/50mg dosage? I was having frequent lower esophageal sphincter dysfunction (achalasia) for years but since going on a regimen of zinc (along with B-12, and levothyroxin for hypothyroidism) my stomach has felt much more relaxed. I'm still eating slowly but I no longer have the fear of a 'lockup' episode.

Hey, I'm just bouncing ideas around but you never know until you try. This seems to be working for me even though there is not a lot of science behind it.
What works for you may not work for others depending on genetics and microbiota diversity. B vitamins are produced in the gut. It's not unusual to have a deficiency due to a lack of certain bacteria. Vitamin D levels are another issue in some instances. Taking D3 is sometimes helpful. I'm still curious about blood levels versus cellular levels. Doc has off the chart vitamin D levels which has probably helped lessen the effects of the autoimmune process.
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BoSoxGal
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Re: The future of medicine.

Post by BoSoxGal »

I’ve been on 3 therapeutic courses of prescription strength D3 followed by a year of taking 5000iu/day and my levels are still low. My doctor wants me to get a true UVB light box ($425!) and I’m trying to work out if insurance will cover it. D deficiency is correlated with numerous issues associated with immune disorders; MS is much more prevalent in persons living at higher latitudes where sun-produced D isn’t available for half the year and of course now many people don’t even get outside between 10-4 for much of the April-October when it IS available. I gather supplements aren’t sufficient for some people and I’m lucky enough to be one of them. I can attest that last summer when I was gardening at the country club and spending 3-4 hours each day in the sun I felt better in many ways than I have in years - so hopefully I can get that box soon and start that therapy, it’s only 5-10 minutes daily but should cure my deficiency once and for all.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

Darren
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Re: The future of medicine.

Post by Darren »

BoSoxGal wrote:I’ve been on 3 therapeutic courses of prescription strength D3 followed by a year of taking 5000iu/day and my levels are still low. My doctor wants me to get a true UVB light box ($425!) and I’m trying to work out if insurance will cover it. D deficiency is correlated with numerous issues associated with immune disorders; MS is much more prevalent in persons living at higher latitudes where sun-produced D isn’t available for half the year and of course now many people don’t even get outside between 10-4 for much of the April-October when it IS available. I gather supplements aren’t sufficient for some people and I’m lucky enough to be one of them. I can attest that last summer when I was gardening at the country club and spending 3-4 hours each day in the sun I felt better in many ways than I have in years - so hopefully I can get that box soon and start that therapy, it’s only 5-10 minutes daily but should cure my deficiency once and for all.
You're ahead of the situation knowing about the vitamin D issue. Getting your level up will make a difference.
Thank you RBG wherever you are!

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