James Randi dead at 92

[MajGenl.Meade]

Is "lame" all you got there MGM? Because I can offer up a ton of evidence (all you need do is look around the world at the amount of injustice) to positively indicate that there is either no God or no Gog who gives a shit one way or another about what happens to us. I find it increasingly incredulous that there are those who are otherwise intelligent individuals who remain gullible on this point. Very lame indeed that issue.

So, make a coherent argument instead of Trumpalizing. And don't you mean "incredible"?

So yo got nothing. I am not sure how Trump figures into an discussion of this nature.

He doesn't. It's my word for anyone who follows the Trumpian example of making statements with no backing in rational thought or argumentation. So far, we seem to have: "Bad things happen. Therefore, God is psychotic". That's as content free as "Bad things happen. Therefore, God does not exist". You could at least make an effort and shove "God shouldn't let bad things happen" in between. It's not a valid argument to put "I don't like religion" in there, although it is of course true.

In order to respond to an argument, I need to see er . . . an actual argument put forward.

[TPFKA@W]

Ok, Kids with cancer. No God or psychotic God. It's all the argument I need to realize that there is either NOTHING OUT THERE OR A BEING THAT IS BATSHIT CRAZY. I am sorry that your eyes are sewn shut to this with TRUMPIAN ignorance.

[BoSoxGal]

I refer to my signature line:

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

There is no question that religion has been used to delude and oppress the masses since the beginning of time, history is replete with undeniable examples in abundance.

Does that mean it isn’t real? It’s as real as any other part of human culture. Cultivated in the minds of humans, from seeds gathered by the attempts of humans to understand the world around them.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Ok, Kids with cancer. No God or psychotic God. It's all the argument I need to realize that there is either NOTHING OUT THERE OR A BEING THAT IS BATSHIT CRAZY. I am sorry that your eyes are sewn shut to this with TRUMPIAN ignorance.

To quote you, "So yo got nothing". Two disconnected statements do not make an argument. Apparently you believe that advocating an invalid and unsound argument is proof that ignorance is on the other foot.

Premise 1: Kids have cancer
Premise 2 + as many as needed : (all missing)
Conclusion: Therefore, either God doesn't exist or, if he/she/it does, then it is crazy

The following argument is valid although not sound:

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
Evil exists.
If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

[TPFKA@W]

Ok, Kids with cancer. No God or psychotic God. It's all the argument I need to realize that there is either NOTHING OUT THERE OR A BEING THAT IS BATSHIT CRAZY. I am sorry that your eyes are sewn shut to this with TRUMPIAN ignorance.

To quote you, "So yo got nothing". Two disconnected statements do not make an argument. Apparently you believe that advocating an invalid and unsound argument is proof that ignorance is on the other foot.

Premise 1: Kids have cancer
Premise 2 + as many as needed : (all missing)
Conclusion: Therefore, either God doesn't exist or, if he/she/it does, then it is crazy

The following argument is valid although not sound:

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
Evil exists.
If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

It seems sound to me. Their either is no God or God is psychotic, just as I have said.

[Big RR]

The problem I see @W is that you are attempting to constrain the concept of a god within the realm of our experience, but if there is truly a god, he/she/it cannot be so constrained as he/she/it transcends our notions of morality and even reality. Just as the concept of infinity befuddles many because they learn that the terms "infinity plus one" o "infinity squared" are meaningless, the idea of a god without constraints causes the same problem. We all seek to contain god in a box, whether physically or morally, without realizing that to do so would basically make the concept of a god meaningless. God is not us, and we are not god (except perhaps in the metaphysical sense that we may all be a part of god), and we have to either accept that or reject the concept of god. Certain truths and realities are revealed to us, but they are for us to grasp and apply, not something to contain god within.

So yes, children with cancer dying painful deaths is terrible, and yes, so far as we understand, god permits that; but unless we choose to put god in the same box as us, it does not mean god is terrible. It's not something we don't understand, I think it is something we cannot understand, at least until we move to the next plane of existence and become more aware. Based on that, you can choose to either accept or reject the existence of god.

Why accept it? I personally find it comforting that while there is a limit to our knowledge within this reality, we may understand more later; indeed, I see the revolution in physics in the early 20th century moving from a deterministic universe to a stochastic one to be a reflection of this, as I do with most of the implications of relativity. Like Faust,we will always wind up butting into a wall in our quest for knowledge, but our concept and understanding of a god leaves us the hope that we may progress as we move forward to the next plane of existence. It makes me realize we are not the center of the universe, but a very small part of it, and there is a lot more than we can see or experience within this reality.

Clearly we will all know have a better understanding one day, but my faith in a god gives me faith for the future.

[TPFKA@W]

Big RR, I wish I had the time, the talent, the and the inclination to sit down and write an expository in response to your thoughtful reply. I did find something a while back when I was on a tear about religion and religious people, which happens frequently when I see things that I would consider unjust under the rule of a God, which I will share because the author of this says it much more succinctly than I could.

https://whynogod.wordpress.com/

The evidence to me is overwhelming although I am loathe to say there is no God, because just as you cannot prove to me that there is one, I cannot disprove that there is not some God, who refuses to properly show itself, and who is clearly a psychotic asshole. It is difficult for me to understand how those with self proclaimed IQ's in the 150's can so blindly and simply follow words written by men who claim to be guided by God. I left the first church of the misguided gullible long ago.

[MajGenl.Meade]

blindly and simply follow words written by men who claim to be guided by God

Ah, you object to loving your neighbor as yourself, eh? No, you clearly do not so . . . I'm suddenly interested in which particular "words" you declare that I am "following" that are evidence of non-intelligence and how do you know?

The issue of soundness IMO can be shown this way:

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
Evil exists.
(a) If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
(b) Therefore, the concept of God as omnipotent, omniscient and morally perfect is in some way not correct

That argument is valid and sound. The "conclusion" (b) is in fact identical to the premise (a).

It is valid but not sound to go from:

(a) If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.

to (b) Therefore, God does not exist.

In this case, (b) has not been proven but is merely one of two different valid conclusions.

I am always interested in how easy it is to tolerate the world and all its natural and moral "evils" as long as one rules God out. Apparently it is thought better to have the evils without God than to have them with God. For example, if one posits that God is doing something about evil (but not according to my desires or timetable) than would I feel better to deny that and be happy that shit happens?

[Big RR]

Thanks @W, I will read that when I get a chance.

As for

It is difficult for me to understand how those with self proclaimed IQ's in the 150's can so blindly and simply follow words written by men who claim to be guided by God. I left the first church of the misguided gullible long ago.

; I have left many of those churches as well; but I always try to remember, just as god is not defined by us, god is also not limited by any church or other religious intatuion or its teachings. Faith and belief are intensely personal things that are fostered by many through life; churches and other religious institutions can help, but we must pursue that knowledge as we pursue any other knowledge, through a combination of education, persona study, and personal reflection.

[TPFKA@W]

but we must pursue that knowledge as we pursue any other knowledge, through a combination of education, persona study, and personal reflection.

Which is exactly how I have arrived at the no God or God is a psychotic asshole point.

[Big RR]

And I respect that @W; I am more than happy to discuss my beliefs with anyone interested but, with some exceptions (especially beliefs which tend to take advantage of the young or those which preach violence against others), I will never condemn anyone else for their beliefs or lack thereof.

[TPFKA@W]

And I respect that @W; I am more than happy to discuss my beliefs with anyone interested but, with some exceptions (especially beliefs which tend to take advantage of the young or those which preach violence against others), I will never condemn anyone else for their beliefs or lack thereof.

I don't particularly condemn, excepting your exceptions, but since my religious blinders fell away I find it difficult to understand why people of otherwise reasonable intelligence cannot see it for what it is-hokum. It (religion in general) is also responsible for many of the world's ills. Women particularly are the victims of injustice brought about by religion. Written down by men to keep women in their place.

[Big RR]

I can't argue with much of what you say, but organized religion is not god IMHO.

[MajGenl.Meade]

People are responsible for the world's (moral) ills. Just as people are responsible for the distortion of religious, political, economic, social, etc. ideas and ideals.

And it looks increasingly as if people are increasingly responsible for causing some/many "natural" ills.

Caveat: altho' given that people are not separate from but part of "nature", perhaps that's not a significant point.