Sustainable aviation fuel

There aint half been some clever bastards.
Post science, nature, technology and all geek stuff here.
Post Reply
User avatar
Scooter
Posts: 16540
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:04 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by Scooter »

An A380 superjumbo just completed a flight powered by cooking oil

(CNN) — It's huge, it's wide, and it's potentially a lot more sustainable. The Airbus A380, a behemoth of the skies, has completed a trial flight powered on cooking oil.

The test airplane completed a three-hour flight from Blagnac Airport in Toulouse -- Airbus' French headquarters -- on 25 March. It was powered by Sustainable Aviation Fuel, or SAF -- predominantly made of used cooking oil and waste fats -- and operating on a single Rolls-Royce Trent 900 engine.

Airbus then followed up with a second A380 flight, using the same cooking oil fuel, on March 29, flying from Toulouse to Nice. The second flight was to monitor SAF use during take-off and landing.

The fuel used was supplied by TotalEnergies, a company based in France's Normandy region. It was made from Hydroprocessed Esters and Fatty Acids (HEFA), which is free of both aromatics and sulfur.

Airbus has been testing the use of SAF-powered flights for the last year, with an A350 being tested in March 2021, and an A319neo single-aisle aircraft flying on cooking oil in October. The company hopes to get its aircraft certified to fly on SAF by the end of the decade. Currently, Airbus aircraft can be powered by up to 50% SAF, blended with traditional kerosene.

"Increasing the use of SAF remains a key pathway to achieving the industry's ambition of netzero carbon emissions by 2050," said Airbus in a statement. The company claims that flying planes on SAF could net between 53% to 71% of the carbon reductions required to meet that goal.
Airbus plans to bring the world's first zero-emission aircraft to market by 2035.

SAF, which claims carbon neutrality because of the CO2 absorbed while its organic ingredients are being grown, is already being used in limited amounts by some airlines. But high prices mean that widespread adoption isn't expected anytime soon.

The world's largest passenger airplane, the A380's fortunes have been in decline in recent years with several airlines calling time on their use, partly on the grounds that they're less fuel efficient than more modern long-range airplanes. Airbus delivered the final ever A380 to Dubai airline Emirates in late 2021.

More recently, Airbus announced that the giant plane would be pressed into service to test an experimental hydrogen-powered engine, another innovation aimed at making flying less environmentally harmful.
I would hope that this wouldn't encourage more clear cutting of forests in order to grow plants that can be made into biofuels, but if there is a more concerted effort to collect and process waste oils, it would be interesting to see how much petroleum product could be displaced.
"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

-- Author unknown

ex-khobar Andy
Posts: 5419
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:16 am
Location: Louisville KY as of July 2018

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Cities such as NYC have programs to collect used cooking oil from restaurants for recycling into fuel oil. I don't know what the percentage is and I couldn't find it with a quick search, but last time I looked I seem to recall an estimate around 25%. That was a few years ago so I hope it's better now. But the value of used oil has increased so now used oil theft is a thing. Per the article I linked, "According to the North American Renderers Association, up to $75 million worth of used cooking oil is stolen in the United States every year and that number will only grow." I suppose, all in all, that's a good sign.

User avatar
Gob
Posts: 33642
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:40 am

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by Gob »

I fancy chips...
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

User avatar
datsunaholic
Posts: 1790
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:53 am
Location: The Wet Coast

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by datsunaholic »

About 15 years ago Boeing partnered with one of the race boat teams to test biofuel in the turbine engine they use (the engines are Vietnam-era surplus Lycoming T55s used in 1960s era Chinook helicopters). Not only did it work, the boat used as a testbed (an obsolete one at that) ran faster laps than the current race boats.
Death is Nature's way of telling you to slow down.

Jarlaxle
Posts: 5370
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:21 am
Location: New England

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by Jarlaxle »

An airliner might be the worst possible application for this. A big problem with biofuels is that they REALLY do not like cold temperatures, and turn to Jello.

User avatar
Scooter
Posts: 16540
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:04 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by Scooter »

The fact that airliners have already been flown using biofuel would make it appear that such a limitation has been overcome.
"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

-- Author unknown

Jarlaxle
Posts: 5370
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:21 am
Location: New England

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by Jarlaxle »

By what process and at what cost?

The traditional means to use biofuel in cold conditions is to simply add traditional fuel to it. Biodiesel in the winter is frequently only a 5-10% blend. The "biofuel" I used for heating my house was never more than B20, and that was never below 50 degrees. (10 Celsius)

User avatar
Scooter
Posts: 16540
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:04 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by Scooter »

Currently, Airbus aircraft can be powered by up to 50% SAF, blended with traditional kerosene.
"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

-- Author unknown

ex-khobar Andy
Posts: 5419
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:16 am
Location: Louisville KY as of July 2018

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

I'm pretty impressed that they did this 3 hour flight using just one engine. A380 has four.

Jarlaxle
Posts: 5370
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:21 am
Location: New England

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by Jarlaxle »

Scooter wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 5:07 am
Currently, Airbus aircraft can be powered by up to 50% SAF, blended with traditional kerosene.
Ah, yes, the famous weasel words "up to"! So, i=f it was burning 98% Jet A-1 and 2% SAF, they could still claim "up to 50%" biofuel.

ex-khobar Andy
Posts: 5419
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:16 am
Location: Louisville KY as of July 2018

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Apparently the Bombardier Global 8000 (Canadian business jet, 19 passenger) can go supersonic with SAF.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/bomb ... index.html

User avatar
Scooter
Posts: 16540
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:04 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by Scooter »

Jarlaxle wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 4:16 pm
Ah, yes, the famous weasel words "up to"! So, i=f it was burning 98% Jet A-1 and 2% SAF, they could still claim "up to 50%" biofuel.
No, "up to 50%" means that it will work with as much as 50% SAF or anything less. Reading comprehension is a useful skill, try it.
"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

-- Author unknown

User avatar
Crackpot
Posts: 11266
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:59 am
Location: Michigan

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by Crackpot »

Actually it means mixtures up to 50% has been successful under test conditions. You would have to get into the weeds of the technical documentation as to what that means in terms of what mixtures would be recommend based on real world conditions (or if data is missing to support all conditions).
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

User avatar
Scooter
Posts: 16540
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:04 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by Scooter »

It certainly doesn't mean that they could test at 2% and claim that it worked at up to 50%, which was the moronic interpretation that was made.
"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

-- Author unknown

Jarlaxle
Posts: 5370
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:21 am
Location: New England

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by Jarlaxle »

Crackpot wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 10:43 am
Actually it means mixtures up to 50% has been successful under test conditions. You would have to get into the weeds of the technical documentation as to what that means in terms of what mixtures would be recommend based on real world conditions (or if data is missing to support all conditions).
Spot on. As long as they were able to run it ONE TIME on B50, in PERFECT, controlled test conditions-it's good "up to" 50%! If those conditions never happen in the real world and the real-world number is 5%...well, they just won't mention that...

User avatar
Scooter
Posts: 16540
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:04 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by Scooter »

And of what benefit would it be for them to do that? If Airbus wants to get its planes certified to fly on SAF, they will need to do so on a blend that actually works. They can't claim that 50% will work if it really doesn't, unless they want their planes falling out of the sky, which won't do them any good.
"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

-- Author unknown

ex-khobar Andy
Posts: 5419
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:16 am
Location: Louisville KY as of July 2018

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

It's a test of concept. They took a three hour flight out of Toulouse and returned safely. They probably had no passengers maybe some sort of weight simulate a load. The test worked and they can move ahead. If real world turns out to be 20% or maybe they have to have one engine with regular jet fuel available in case of mixing errors, it's all progress.

User avatar
Crackpot
Posts: 11266
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:59 am
Location: Michigan

Re: Sustainable aviation fuel

Post by Crackpot »

An lot of it has to do with test conditions when starting out you work with optimal and then move to average then finally to extreme.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

Post Reply