Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

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rubato
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by rubato »

Big RR wrote:rubato--if we have always acted morally in the past, I might agree with you, but we are hardly are moral beacon. Hell, we practically patted Saddam on the back for the same thing years ago (not to mention having supplied him with the chemicals to make the poison), but then he was the enemy of our enemy (Iran) while Assad is its friend--and the end justifies the means. Not to mention that we have supported and helped dictatorial regimes in the past who have done far worse because it was in our interest. Acting in our own self interest is not always moral, and it erodes any argument that we are acting morally now. Indeed, I don't think there is any country which can defensibly that it is acting out of some moral sense of outrage.

That is why I think only a concerted international response can work; our interests are not always aligned with other countries (even our friends), which is why a coalition would act in a situation like this only if there is a moral imperative, and not some self interest masquerading as such.

Either that, or admit we are acting in our own self interest and present the case to the American public as to why a strike is needed to advance that interest. There may well be defensible interests here (I don't see them, but they may exist), but let's not delude ourselves to say we are acting as a defender of morality.

So your "theory" is that we cannot do the right thing unless we have always done the right thing in the past and only if everyone else goes along with us.

Not a functional theory in the real world.


yrs,
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Sean
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Sean »

If the US feel the need to launch strikes then, by all means, go for it. But those who describe those who disagree as 'pussies' etc need to take a long, hard look at themselves. The US has long ago decided that it is the world's policeman. Good luck to it! Just don't act so surprised when the rest of the world doesn't stand on the sidelines cheering on every single action.
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RayThom
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LIKE ALL POLITICS...

Post by RayThom »

... damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It all depends on which side of the aisle offers more concessions and future comforts to those elected to represent "We the people." A quasi-democratic system of rule built solidly upon bullshit, rhetoric, and ambiguity. Conversely, and regardless, I know our President will authorize "limited" military action. Limited being the operative term.

"The (mid)eastern world... it is explodin'...


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Econoline
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Econoline »

Progressives may differ on whether using military action to sanction Assad is the correct course of action for the United States. But the argument that Obama's proposal to use military means to sanction the use of chemical weapons by Assad is analogous to the Bush's rush to war in Iraq is just plain wrong.
There are five major differences between the current resolution and the one that authorized the Iraq War
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Big RR
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Big RR »

rubato wrote:
Big RR wrote:rubato--if we have always acted morally in the past, I might agree with you, but we are hardly are moral beacon. Hell, we practically patted Saddam on the back for the same thing years ago (not to mention having supplied him with the chemicals to make the poison), but then he was the enemy of our enemy (Iran) while Assad is its friend--and the end justifies the means. Not to mention that we have supported and helped dictatorial regimes in the past who have done far worse because it was in our interest. Acting in our own self interest is not always moral, and it erodes any argument that we are acting morally now. Indeed, I don't think there is any country which can defensibly that it is acting out of some moral sense of outrage.

That is why I think only a concerted international response can work; our interests are not always aligned with other countries (even our friends), which is why a coalition would act in a situation like this only if there is a moral imperative, and not some self interest masquerading as such.

Either that, or admit we are acting in our own self interest and present the case to the American public as to why a strike is needed to advance that interest. There may well be defensible interests here (I don't see them, but they may exist), but let's not delude ourselves to say we are acting as a defender of morality.

So your "theory" is that we cannot do the right thing unless we have always done the right thing in the past and only if everyone else goes along with us.

Not a functional theory in the real world.


yrs,
rubato
And yours is what, might makes right? That's somehow better in "the real world". That we are somehow able to claim the moral high ground just because we can. Moral leadership requires a record of acting morally first, and we don't have that.

dgs49
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by dgs49 »

The argument is that (a) there is an international consensus that using chemical weapons is unacceptable, (b) Assad used chemical weapons, and is believed to have significant inventories of such weapons (in order to keep that option open in the future), (c) the U.S. is in the best position to inflict punishment on the wrongdoer, and has the weapons to do it efficiently, and (d) an effective military strike will presumably deter Assad from using them in the future. Conversely, there is no other international body or nation that could inflict a "punishment" without universal condemnation for doing so. Say, Israel.

The possibility that such a strike would tip the balance in the civil war is collateral. As a matter of policy, we don't give a shit which side wins out, although the outflow of refugees and massive human rights violations would make us uncomfortable.

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Sue U
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Sue U »

Oh, why not put it here:
2:15 pm September 10, 2013
HOW TO SUCCEED IN FOREIGN AFFAIRS WITHOUT REALLY TRYING
Obama, Kerry Are Idiot Savants Of Foreign Policy As Syria Agrees To Surrender Chemical Weapons Like Soonish

by Alex Ruthrauff

Image

The story so far: Barack Obama said: “I am terrible at foreign policy, therefore I will say a bunch of stuff I only half-mean, such as that there’s a red line, and that I’m going to bomb everybody, but it will be obvious I don’t want to, and everyone will think I’m a moron.” Then John Kerry said: “I am even worse at foreign policy than the president and I can say definitively that what is about to happen will never happen.” (KERRY: “[Assad] could turn over every single bit of his chemical weapons to the international community in the next week … He isn’t about to do it, and it can’t be done, obviously.”) Then — HUH!? — Syria said: “Here, actually you can have all our chemical weapons that we did not use and would never use, we are pretty good at murdering people without them after all.” Then Russia said: “We are relevant again!” Then John McCain said: “I would still like to bomb somebody, please.”

In other, less infantile words, we have just learned that it’s possible to be outwardly terrible at foreign policy, yet still achieve a result better than most anyone thought possible. Sure, some people think this was Obama’s plan all along: talk tough on Syria while avoiding an actual attack by making a sort of sleepy, detached case for action, asking a pathologically reticent Congress for permission, etc. But no, that’s not what happened, because it’s not in Obama’s interest to look like a powerless idiot, which he now does.

It’s much more likely that Obama trapped himself by subordinating foreign policy to domestic politics. Taking him at his word, Obama very much wants to make an example of Assad and “hit” his regime for using chemical weapons. And he thought Americans would be like “Yeah, you do foreign policy good, go right ahead!” But… they did not say that. They said “Syria is Iraq and Afghanistan because we are not good at thinking without the help of clumsy analogies, and also aren’t you supposed to be a Democrat?” So, remembering his Democrat roots, Obama began waffling. You know the rest: Our Syria attack would be devastating and also unbelievably small; Obama doesn’t think he needs Congress’s approval for a strike but he’ll ask for it anyway; Kerry won’t rule out boots on the ground, and there will definitely be no boots on the ground; we’re doing this to protect Syrian civilians; no, we’re doing it to send a message; no, it’s in our national interest.

Yet, somehow, it’s all working out. Perhaps spurred by America’s weirdly stated threats and Russia’s desire to look important, Syria appears ready to give up their chemical weapons. And even if they hold onto a few in secret, they’re in a similar position to Iraq before the second Gulf War: facing strong disincentives to use chemical weapons again, because they know a lot of folks are just itching to explode stuff on them. Hey, whaddaya know, John McCain is good for something after all!
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Gob
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Gob »

“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

dgs49
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by dgs49 »

Comrade Putin now says that he planted the seed in Barry's ear in St Petersburg last week, after conferring with officials from the Syrian regime.

Kerry was throwing it out, not really expecting anything to come of it, but...

Who knows?

I may have missed it, but did the Assad regime ever deny that they were the ones who used these chemical weapons?

dgs49
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by dgs49 »

Chemical weapons link:

I lived in Danang for a year. But I don't think I can blame my unfortunate physiognomy on Agent Orange.

Having experienced both tear gas and "CS" riot gas, I can only imagine how bad more serious chemical agents could be. Wouldn't wish it on a Democrat.

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