What a silly punt.

[Econoline]

Actually, Wes was probably referring to Guin's post, since she's the one who mentioned "per mile travelled", not me...and I agree that "per hour of travel" is probably a better metric than either the absolute number of injuries or "per mile travelled".

Turns out none of us are right. (Oh, okay, I'll say it: I was wrong.)

First of all, this is a graph of the numbers I was thinking of:



And this compares the figures according to hours travelled:



So it turns out the figures for biking, driving, and walking aren't all that different from each other--all in the same general ballpark.

Here's a good overview (from Treehugger.com) of the subject of bicycle safety and helmets. Here's another (from BicycleSafe.com) that makes some of the same points. And here's a nice analysis and debunking of the most widely-cited study on the subject, the one that claims that bicycle helmets "reduce head injuries by 85% and brain injuries by 88%."

This (from that last source) seems to be a pretty good takeaway on the whole subject:

• Even if helmets are effective, it does not follow that all cyclists should wear them. Racing car drivers wear helmets, but not people driving to work. The difference is the level of risk. For the same reason, racing cyclists and mountain bikers often choose to wear helmets, but riding down a quiet road to the corner shop is a generally safe activity. Driving and cycling have similar risks per hour of serious head injury.

So...a good general rule is to be aware of the level of risk and then just use common sense. Who'da thunk it?

[Guinevere]

I think per mile traveled may be more accurate than total hours because it takes into account risk, which it what we are discussing. If you go slow, it's less miles but more hours, at lower risk. Faster, cover more hours, at higher risk.

And fwiw, I am not advocating more rules mandating helmet wearing. But I find it astonishing that people will engage in a risky activity without taking a simple safety precaution. At least I'm consistent tho, I wear my seatbelt too, and don't text and drive, either.

[Crackpot]

It should be mentioned that most cars nowadays feature built in head protection

[Gob]

Australia was the first country to make wearing bicycle helmets mandatory. The majority of early statistical data regarding the effectiveness of bicycle helmets originated from Australia. Their efficacy is still a matter of debate.

Between 1990 and 1992, Australian states and territories introduced various laws mandating that cyclists wear bicycle helmets while riding after a campaign by various groups including the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons

[rubato]

I think per mile traveled may be more accurate than total hours because it takes into account risk, which it what we are discussing. If you go slow, it's less miles but more hours, at lower risk. Faster, cover more hours, at higher risk.

And fwiw, I am not advocating more rules mandating helmet wearing. But I find it astonishing that people will engage in a risky activity without taking a simple safety precaution. At least I'm consistent tho, I wear my seatbelt too, and don't text and drive, either.

If someone rides a bicycle or a motorcycle w/o a helmet their body should just be pulled into the nearest ditch for the beetles and ants to take care of it rather than having all of us pay for them. Why care about them when they don't give a fuck about us?

yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

Rubato-

Your "health insurance coverage" includes those facilities maintained by public funds at the common expense which you will certainly exploit at need.

spare me; my insurance policy is a contract that pays for my expenses when certain conditions set forth in the contract are met. And I will insist on what I am entitled to, just as those facilties will demand from them to cover the cost of my care. If they do not demand enough, it is not my problem; however, in most cases private insurance is used to supplement charity care and public expenses, not vice versa.

The only 'idiotic prediction' is that you won't go to an emergency room when you have a concussion. Please, stop arguing like a child

Please, where did I say I would not go to an emergency room if I believed needed treatment. Please stop reading posts with the comprehension of a 2 year old.

They only give you a larger crowd of idiots to hide in.

lead the way to that crowd, asshhole. You just can't discuss a subject rationally without name calling. Fine, it's descended to that and I've returned in kind so you can claim to be superior. But the discussion is over.

guin--you make some very good points, and I have no doubt it is better to wear one when riding. The chances of severe head injuries are slight but real, and should be weighed by each of us. My only point was, if one does something stupid, one should anticipate that they may suffer the consequences.

[Gob]

Welcome to the club BigRR.

[oldr_n_wsr]

Never wore a helmet while riding a bicycle and didn't make my kids wear them either and not because they whined about it, which they didn't.
I do wear a helmet on the MC but only because it is the law. No such law in Pa. so when I ride up there I do not wear a helmet.
I also went skydiving without a helmet.
I tool around in my go kart without a helmet.
I've done roofing jobs without a helmet and without a harness.
I jumped off a moving car without a helmet and lost my sense of smell (Halloween 1980).
I do wear a helmet when snowmobiling but it's mostly for warmth.

So push my body into the ditch and let the bugs have a meal if something ever happens to me while doing things without a helmet.
And don't keep me alive (costing the general public money) if I'm rendered a quadrapalegic or brain dead. (yes I do have a living will and whatever other legal docs needed to pull the plug or not save me)

My sister is an EMT and she calls helmets "brain buckets" as they keep the head nice and neat and not needing a road crew to clean up after.

[Lord Jim]

Welcome to the club BigRR.

I'll send you your membership card, coffee mug and secret decoder ring...

[wesw]

I m glad I waited for RR to respond to rube

....no, he is not better than you. we all have the right to defend ourselves and we had better do it..., either that, or submit to our intellectual 'betters' in the big brother set.....


eta- I m with older, just throw me to the crabs please....

[rubato]

"...

I don't think helmets would necessarily provide protection for all of the types of brain injury you get in a car crash. If the car is rapidly accelerated by someone hitting you from the rear it is the inertial mass of your brain hitting the back of your skull and the rebounding off the front which causes the damage more than the impact with the headrest. If you are moving and hit something else it is the same in reverse. Your body is thrown forward against the seatbelts but your brain still hits the front of your skull after which tension in the seatbelts decelerates your doing it again in the other direction.

yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

"...

lead the way to that crowd, asshhole. You just can't discuss a subject rationally without name calling. Fine, it's descended to that and I've returned in kind so you can claim to be superior. But the discussion is over.

guin--you make some very good points, and I have no doubt it is better to wear one when riding. The chances of severe head injuries are slight but real, and should be weighed by each of us. My only point was, if one does something stupid, one should anticipate that they may suffer the consequences.

You earlier posts were littered with insults yourself. I have never heard you complain about the flood of insults from others. You apply rules of etiquette too selectively to give them any weight.

And now you are just irritable because your delusion that you can take risks without shifting costs to the rest of society is so easily punctured.

yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

oldr--IMHO, many things we do are subject to a cost benefit analysis where we weigh the costs against the benefits rendered by doing a specific thing or act. So looking at the benefit of wearing a helmet while bicycling, we must make the choice whether this stands up against the cost, and I see them as somewhat balance for ordinary street riding (there is definitely a benefit as I told Guin, but it is pretty small as the chance of a serious accident is pretty small), but as the chances of such accidents increase, so would the benefit, so I usually wear a helmet while riding in major cities (like NYC) and while doing something like mountain biking. Ditto for skiing; I ordinarily do not wear a helmet, but I will on occasion if I think it advisable. Because this weighing is individual (and you may not choose to wear a helmet or vice versa), I will generally oppose laws requiring us to protect ourselves, using some sort of hyped up societal cost of non compliance as the excuse. Freedom is not free.

But, as I oppose such laws, I also draw the line at making decisions for those unable to make decisions for themselves. My children always wore helmets because it was the law and I wanted to create a respect for it. And when I cycled with them I always wore my helmet as well (to encourage them to do so); now that they are in their 20s one nearly always wears the helmet when we bicycle, while the other is more like me and usually does not.

The one other thing that is a problem, is allowing the law to negatively affect your behavior. For example, since I began driving I always wore my seat belt thinking it is a good thing to do. However, when my state passed a seatbelt law I stopped, and didn't wear a seat belt for several years; I even got a few "cheat belt" shirts (the ones with the diagonal band across the chest/abdomen to look like a seatbelt), but I finally realized I was doing exactly what I said I rejected--letting the government control my behavior by passing a law. And so I began wearing the belt again.

[wesw]

I wear my seat belt when I feel it is appropriate.

i wear it when there are children in the car.

if i m going fishing, and heading to the freedom of nature..., not a chance....

my truck only has a lap belt, so the police never know if i m wearing one or not. they check sometimes, but i can usually get it buckled on the down low before they approach.....

hee hee hee

[Big RR]

FWIW--in the 3+ years I did not wear a seatbelt, I was never once cited for it. Indeed, the only time I did get a seatbelt ticket is when I was wearing one and was stopped for speeding; the cop said I can either give you a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt (while I was sitting there buckled in) or for speeding. Since the seatbelt fine was cheaper and no points, I unbuckled my seat belt and told the cop "I'm not really sure if I was wearing a belt when you stopped me"; he chuckled and gave me the seatbelt ticket (I think NJ state troopers must have a point system for stops and have to issue tickets; it's the only time I got a ticket (albeit a reduced one) with my PBA card.

[wesw]

I didn t know that you were a pro bowler....

[Guinevere]

Don't let any cop tell you that they don't have "quotas." Maybe not per se, but I've spent plenty of time behind the scenes in police stations and I've seen the "ticket lists" and also read the personnel files that talk and consider number of tickets given. Any smart young patrol officer knows the ticket count stat is part of the "ticket" to higher rank...


And if not wearing a bike helmet is stupid, not wearing a seat belt is insane. May you all live charmed lives.

[Big RR]

wes--I'll probably regret this but, "Pro Bowler"?

[wesw]

PBA card?

it s been a long time since they showed pro bowling on tv, but I think that that is the acronym for the bowling big league....

[Big RR]

See, I knew I would regret it.