The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting...

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Lord Jim
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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by Lord Jim »

Back to that snowballs chance the Dems pull this one out.
I think Moore has the edge at this point, but I'd still rate Jones' chances as better than the proverbial snowball...

The polls have been all over the map, (in the two most recent, one has Moore up by seven, the other has Jones up by four)

This race is a polling nightmare; because there have been very few competitive races in the state in recent years, the major national and regional polling operations have little experience in doing polls in Alabama, and trying to come up with a valid turnout model to base a poll on for a special election with so many unique variables is a complete crap shoot...

Bottom line is, it's all going to come down to turnout, and which side is more fired up to show up at the polls...

Which because of the unreliability of the polling, is something that will remain unknowable until election day...
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Guinevere
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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by Guinevere »

I have no idea what is going to happen, mostly because I have no faith that the average Alabaman, when confronted with a difficult choice, will do anything other then push the button they normally push.

Think about the messaging that’s been going around - pedophilia is better than the Democratic Party. Good lord. If the voters care about doing the right thing, they’ll vote for Jones. If they just go to their default setting, Moore wins going away.
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The Alabama Senate Race Got A Lot More Moore

Post by RayThom »

BREAKING LOCAL NEWS: JESUS CHRIST WOULD BE ROLLING OVER IN HIS GRAVE HAD HE STAYED IN IT.


"By the Book" Fundamentalist Christians ... they're going to kill us all.
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Big RR
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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by Big RR »

While I agree in principle, if "rewarding" someone for doing what they should do is the price for bringing down Trump, it's a small price to pay, isn't it?

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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by Econoline »

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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by Burning Petard »

Yes these sexual predatory charges are old. But the documentation that Mr. Moore was advocating that women should not run for any political office are not old. The fact that his fellow Alabama judges threw him out as a judge because he lied are not old.

But I also have faith that the voters of Alabama will elect Moore, consistent with the anger produced by 30+ years of propaganda about establishment elites, liberal agenda, pie in the sky trickle down economics. And particularly the dumming down of America in general so the nation shares this cess-pool of ignorance that the Alabama education system has long preserved for its people.

snailgate

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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by Big RR »

And old child molestation charges are still child molestation.

Good one econo.

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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

They say that dumming happens
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by Sue U »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:They say that dumming happens
I thought Dumming was a town in Cornwall.
GAH!

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Lord Jim
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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by Lord Jim »

If Moore wins the election and isn't expelled, he'll be the gift that keeps on giving:
Roy Moore: America was great in era of slavery, is now ‘focus of evil in the world’

Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore holds a slight lead in next Tuesday’s election in the deep-red state of Alabama. Sen. Richard C. Shelby (R-Ala.) won reelection in the state last year by nearly 30 points; Moore leads in an average of recent polls by a little more than 2.

It’s certainly the case that the closeness of the race is a function of the accusations that have been leveled against Moore over the past month. A month ago Saturday, The Post revealed that Moore had pursued several high-school-age women while he was in his 30s and serving in the district attorney’s office in Etowah County during the late 1970s. What’s more, one woman, Leigh Corfman, told of being approached by Moore when she was only 14 and described him sexually touching her. After that report, several other women came forward with stories about Moore approaching them as teenagers or, in one case, attempting a sexual assault.

Those allegations have dominated the conversation around Moore since — obscuring another aspect to the race. Even before those allegations, Moore was underperforming against Democrat Doug Jones. During his 2012 election as chief justice of the state’s Supreme Court, he won by only 3.5 points during an election that saw Mitt Romney beat President Barack Obama by more than 20 — likely a function of his having been ousted from the same position several years before for ignoring a court order. (He would go on to be removed from the bench again after winning in 2012, again for failing to uphold federal law.)

Beyond that, though, Moore has a long track record of saying controversial or offensive things, many of which have resurfaced recently as he seeks the highest office of his political career.

In 1997, as a circuit court judge, Moore spoke out against evolution — and linked it to crime. CNN’s KFILE team uncovered the video.

“We have kids driving by, shooting each other, that they don’t even know each other,” Moore said. “They’re acting like animals because we’ve taught them they come from animals. They’re treating their fellow men with prejudice because we taught them they come from animals.”

In 2005, Moore was interviewed by journalist Bill Press. During that interview, he argued that homosexuality should be illegal.

“Homosexual conduct should be illegal, yes,” he told Press when asked about his views on a contemporaneous Supreme Court decision. At the time, nearly half the country agreed; his campaign has not clarified whether he still holds this position.

In 2006, writing for the conservative site WorldNetDaily, he argued that Rep. Keith Ellison (D-Minn.) should not be allowed to serve in the House because he is Muslim and would be sworn in on the Koran.

“In 1943, we would never have allowed a member of Congress to take their oath on ‘Mein Kampf,’ or someone in the 1950s to swear allegiance to the ‘Communist Manifesto,'” Moore wrote. “Congress has the authority and should act to prohibit Ellison from taking the congressional oath today!” Asked about this article in October, Moore appeared to stand by it.

A year ago, after Donald Trump’s election, Moore was asked at an event whether he believed that Obama was born in the United States.

“My personal belief is that he wasn’t,”
Moore replied, “but that’s probably over and done in a few days, unless we get something else to come along.”

In August of this year, Moore was interviewed by the Guardian. CNN excerpted part of the discussion.

The interviewer noted that Ronald Reagan once said that the Soviet Union was the focus of evil in the modern world.

“You could say that very well about America, couldn’t you?” Moore replied.

“Do you think?” the interviewer replied.

“Well, we promote a lot of bad things,” Moore said. Asked for an example, Moore replied, “Like same-sex marriage.”
It was Moore’s refusal to uphold the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision on same-sex marriage that led to his second ouster from Alabama’s court.

When the interviewer noted that Putin makes the same argument, Moore didn’t blink.

“Maybe Putin is right,” Moore replied. “Maybe he’s more akin to me than I know.”


In September, Moore held a rally in Florence, Ala. One of the members of the audience, an African American, asked Moore when he thought America was last great.

“I think it was great at the time when families were united — even though we had slavery — they cared for one another,” Moore replied, according to the Los Angeles Times. “Our families were strong, our country had a direction.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pol ... dbd36ee02f

Oh, and let's not forget:
CNN: Alabama GOP Senate Candidate Suggested 9/11 Was Divine Punishment

Former Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore (R), who is running to fill Attorney General Jeff Sessions’ old Senate seat, suggested earlier this year that the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks might have been a form of divine punishment.

In remarks he made in February, surfaced by CNN’s KFILE, Moore quoted from the Old Testament’s Book of Isaiah to support his claims.

“This iniquity will be to you as a breach ready to fall, swell out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instance,” Moore quoted, and added his own annotation: “Sounds a little bit like the Pentagon, whose breaking came suddenly at an instance, doesn’t it?”

“You know, we’ve suffered a lot in this country, maybe, just maybe, because we’ve distanced ourselves from the one that has it within his hands to heal this land,” he added.

The remarks were similar to comments Moore made in a speech at Georgetown in January 2003, as CNN noted, where he cited the Book of Isaiah foretold a “day of great slaughter when the towers fall.”

“How many of you remember Americans running to get gas masks because (of) some bearded man in Afghanistan?” Moore said. “There are consequences when we turn away from our source of our strength.”
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/r ... punishment

Who knows what new pearls of wisdom and unique insights would spring forth from Senator Moore between now and the mid-term elections...
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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by BoSoxGal »

I’m not condoning Roy Moore’s behavior but I take issue with conflating his actions to pedophilia. It seems inaccurate considering the clinical description of the disorder. There is much that is fucked up about Moore, but I’m concerned about diminishing the seriousness of pedophilia by conflating it to adult male attraction to young, but post-pubescent, females.
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Lord Jim
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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by Lord Jim »

I found this to be very unfortunate:
Roy Moore accuser acknowledges she added note to her yearbook

Washington (CNN)The Roy Moore accuser who pointed to her signed yearbook to bolster her claim of abuse against the Republican Senate candidate acknowledged that she wrote notes underneath his signature.

Beverly Young Nelson, who has accused Moore of sexual assault when she was a teenager, told ABC News on Friday that she added notes to Moore's inscription on her 1977 yearbook, but maintains that the signed note itself is authentic.

Nelson's attorney, Gloria Allred, reemphasized the point at a news conference Friday afternoon, saying a handwriting analyst concluded the signature belonged to Moore. The former judge says the inscription is a forgery.

"To a sweeter more beautiful girl I could not say Merry Christmas. Christmas 1977. Love, Roy Moore, DA. 12-22-77 Olde Hickory House," the yearbook note reads.

Allred said she did not ask the handwriting analyst to examine the notation following the signature "because Beverly indicates that she added that to remind herself of who Roy Moore was, and when and where Roy Moore signed her yearbook."

Nelson has said Moore was a regular at the Olde Hickory House, a restaurant where she worked when she was starting high school.

She has accused Moore of groping and trying to force himself on her when she was 16.

Moore has called Nelson's accusations "absolutely false" and denies knowing her. He also denies the allegations of several other women who have accused him of pursuing relationships with them when they were teenagers and he was in his 30s, including one woman who said she was 14 at the time.

The news about Nelson's notation under the yearbook inscription sparked renewed calls from Moore's attorney, Phillip Jauregui, for Nelson to release the yearbook to a third party to independently test the ink on the yearbook as well as the handwriting.

"The truth is out there, and until she releases the yearbook all we know is they are not telling the truth and they've lied," Jauregui said Friday.

Although Nelson has emphasized that the yearbook note itself is from Moore, her notation is likely to fuel the skepticism of Moore supporters, who have said the entire yearbook entry is a fabrication.

Donald Trump Jr. tweeted Friday, "I wonder if Allred told her to do that? WE CALLED IT! Gloria Allred Accuser **ADMITS** She Tampered With Roy Moore's Yearbook 'Signature' (VIDEO)"[He also pounced on this at his rally last night]
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/09/politics/ ... index.html

This of course does nothing to undermine the credibility of the other 8 Moore accusers, (including the most damning one of the original four) but it's very unfortunate, because it provides something for Moore, his supporters, (and Trump) to try to use to undermine the accusations overall...

And it does beg the question of why Nelson didn't simply admit to this at the time she first came forward. I can see where it would have been perfectly logical for her to add a note to remind herself of who Moore was, (afterall, it's not like he was a classmate) and if she had said it at the outset, I don't think it would have raised any questions...

But now, it looks like she deliberately chose not to mention it for some reason, and didn't come forward until Allred became suspicious, confronted her about it, and insisted that she come forward with the admission to get it in the public record...


All of which is not helpful...
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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by Burning Petard »

"All of which is not helpful..."

Of course. Damn little in politics is intended be helpful, most of it is intended to be destructive. A race to the bottom.

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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

To me the inscription is very clearly in two different hands.

'To a sweeter more beautiful girl I could not say "Merry Christmas." Christmas 1977 Love Roy Moore DA' is in one hand; and the date and place '12-22-77 Olde Hickory House' is in another. It's absolutely crystal clear and because she revealed it in the first place there can never have been any attempt by the victim to claim that the whole thing was written by Moore. Now I don't know if Moore did or did not write the first bit; but to castigate the victim because she did not point out that the same person did not write the date and place is to blame her for not explaining that a giraffe is not a mushroom.

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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by Scooter »

Yeah, I can't see how she loses credibility with anyone except those who have chosen not to be convinced, and regardless of whether it was made public a month ago or now, the usual suspects would have yelled "a-ha" and made the same accusation that to write something below a signature somehow constitutes "tampering" with it. It is, as Andy said, obvious on its face that the notation is of a different hand; it's not as if she attempted to mimic his script or to claim that Moore wrote it, as a way of supporting her version of the timeline.

I don't know anything about the science, but I would imagine that there would be a way to determine if those notations were written closer to 40 years ago (when she would have had no motive to go after Moore), or just in the past year or so.

And this clamouring for additional handwriting analysis sounds a lot like turkeys asking for a second Thanksgiving. Frankly I find it more suspicious for someone to declare unequivocally that, 40 years after the fact, he has perfect recall of never having signed a particular high school yearbook, and so it must be a forgery. He could have very believably, and quite possibly truthfully, claimed to have absolutely no recollection of signing it, and if he did, so what; if an employee at a restaurant he patronized asked him to, he might have done so out of politeness; it doesn't mean that he otherwise took note of her, much less sought her out.
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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by Big RR »

BoSoxGal wrote:I’m not condoning Roy Moore’s behavior but I take issue with conflating his actions to pedophilia. It seems inaccurate considering the clinical description of the disorder. There is much that is fucked up about Moore, but I’m concerned about diminishing the seriousness of pedophilia by conflating it to adult male attraction to young, but post-pubescent, females.
so you're saying there is a difference between a man in is 30s molesting an 8 year old and a 14 (or even a 16) year old? Certainly the 14/16 year old may have gone through puberty, but we have laws to protect them from those who would otherwise take advantage of them for a reason. I'm not saying there is no difference, nor am I saying that a man who molests 8 year olds is likely to do the same to adolescents, but I have seen first hand what this behavior can do to both children and adolescents, and it's not all that different. We can call them different things (like pedophilia and hebophilia) and that may be helpful for those in clinical settings, but I do not think the practical difference is all that much.

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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by BoSoxGal »

Big RR, I've prosecuted child rapists - men who raped 6 year olds, and men who raped 12 year olds, and men who raped 16 year olds, even impregnating them - etc. I represented children in state custody and represented the state on cases involving dependent children, many of those cases involving sexual abuse. I've seen firsthand the effects myself, including having had the lovely opportunity to review firsthand photographic and video evidence of child pornography involving adult men raping baby girls not even 5 years old. The vicarious trauma from that work left me with a chronic disabling illness.

So, I hope you weren't intending to somehow suggest that I was minimizing or didn't 'get' the effects of these crimes as you do. But just to be clear, I do understand - probably even better than you ever could.

And yes, pedophilia and hebephilia are in fact distinctly different disorders, and our laws recognize them as wrong in differing degrees. When I convicted a man of raping a 6 year old girl, he faced up to life in prison with a mandatory minimum; a man convicted of raping a 14 or 16 year old girl faces no mandatory minimum and when I researched sentencing across the state in preparing my sentencing memoranda, I found that routinely the punishments imposed are much less harsh. I suspect this is true in other jurisdictions as well.

I raised the issue as grounds for a fertile discussion; again, I in no way condone Roy Moore's actions, I think it's creepy - but we are only a few generations removed from a time when adult men marrying teenaged girls was normative. Perhaps one of the problems is that our laws haven't caught up with our new perspective on the phenomena of adult men being attracted to mid-late teenaged girls - which recent studies suggest is actually very common.
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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by Big RR »

Well BSG, I won't argue that they are different, but in my mind there is a big difference between an adult marrying a teen (or dating one) and an adult using his position to force sexual favors from a teen. My mom was married at 16 (and didn't have me until 2 years later so it wasn't for that reason), but I have also had 16 year old clients raped by their mom's boyfriend, sometimes over a long period of time, and I had one 14 year old client pimped by her mother to the man they were staying with (so they could stay), and she would up on drugs and turning tricks in the street (we got her some help, and she is in a residential program now recovering from that abuse). And I could give you a lot of similar stories. So while it is different from abusing an 8 year old, I do not think it is that different.

I have no problem with assessing these things on a case by case basis (and perhaps letting older teens marry if they have sufficient maturity to understand what they are doing) to determine what is being done, but I do not see Moore's threatening a 14 year old with legal trouble all that different from a pedophile threatening to kill a nine year old's dog if she doesn't cooperate. Both can have serious and lasting effects on the victims, and I don't think comparing them somehow lessens the seriousness of each one. Our society chooses to view the victimization of a young adolescent as somehow less horrible than victimizing a younger girl, but that doesn't objectively make it any less damaging to the adolescent. I do agree this is one of the drawbacks of our current laws, but I don't see a problem in adult men being attracted to adolescents, only in men acting on that attraction and victimizing them.

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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by Burning Petard »

The weather forecast for Jasper, Alabama calls for partly cloudy with high in the upper 40's. I hope that is good weather for a big voter turnout. I would hate to see this race decided by a poll of only the most emotionally committed on each side.

The coverage I see on the net and in the WaPo or NYTimes has said very little about the GOP candidate's recent record. His supporters point to that and say what he did with girls 30 years ago does not indicate who he is today. I would have liked to have seen more attention to his peers--his fellow Alabama judges who kicked him off the state supreme court.

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Re: The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting.

Post by Sue U »

Burning Petard wrote:The coverage I see on the net and in the WaPo or NYTimes has said very little about the GOP candidate's recent record. His supporters point to that and say what he did with girls 30 years ago does not indicate who he is today. I would have liked to have seen more attention to his peers--his fellow Alabama judges who kicked him off the state supreme court.
"What he did 30 years ago" and his "recent record" both reflect exactly who Roy Moore is: a man who thinks himself above the law and a law unto himself, putting his own ego and gratification before the needs and interests of anyone else and willing to use whatever power he has to control and manipulate those who have less.

Fuck that guy and the horse he rides around on.
GAH!

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