God looks after those who look after themselves

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Gob
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God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by Gob »

More than 10,600 religious organizations have taken at least $3bn in coronavirus financial aid from the US government, according to an analysis by the Guardian, raising concerns about the separation of church and state.


The list of recipients of federal Paycheck Protection Program payments includes churches, synagogues, temples and private religious schools. Among them are the ministries of wealthy televangelists accused of fraud and one “secretive sect”.

Religious leaders who have advised the Trump administration have seen their operations receive millions, as did a not-for-profit organization that supports Israeli soldiers.

There is no restriction against churches – which do not pay taxes, don’t have to disclose their funding sources, and aren’t subject to all anti-discrimination laws – from receiving publicly funded forgivable PPP coronavirus relief loans.

Rachel Laser, the chief executive of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, said the situation was unprecedented and unacceptable.

“The American government at the federal level has never before subsidized houses of worship to pay for the salaries of their clergy,” Laser said. “At Americans United we believe that the first amendment clearly forbids this. The Small Business Administration of the Trump administration may have allowed it, but the constitution forbids it.”

But churches contacted by the Guardian said that they – just like other employers – need the money to keep paying staff, contributing to local economies and serving their communities. The Guardian attempted to contact all of the organizations in this story for comment.

Michael McConnell, a constitutional law professor at Stanford University and a former judge, said he did not see a problem with churches taking aid.

“The purpose of the program was to subsidize employers so that laid-off workers would not lose their jobs, and that purpose is as important when it comes to a church secretary as it is when it is a receptionist in an office,” McConnell said.

Nineteen organizations received the highest loan amount available – between $5m and $10m, according to data released on Monday by the SBA. Seven of those 19 are affiliated with the Catholic church, including the archdiocese of New York. Only 60% of the funds churches receive must go to salaries to be forgiven. The other 40% can be used on other expenses.

Most of the thousands of churches that received aid are not mired in controversy. They range in size and denomination.

Life.Church, which is headquartered in Edmond, Oklahoma, but has 34 locations and produces podcasts and online religion programs, received between $5m and $10m and said the money would help retain 451 workers.

“We’re grateful that non-profits and churches were able to qualify for the PPP, because we believe that organizations like ours play an important role in serving communities during times of crisis,” said Pastor Bobby Gruenewald.

But highly controversial figures have also received aid. They include the televangelists Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker and Peter Popoff.

Swaggart, who leads the Family Worship Center in Louisiana, was defrocked by the Pentecostal Assemblies of God in the early 1990s after being implicated in sex scandals. His church got between $2m and $5m.

Bakker, of Morningside Church Productions in Missouri, was defrocked by the Assemblies of God after a highly publicized sexual encounter with a church secretary; was imprisoned in the 90s on dozens of fraud and conspiracy charges surrounding his church fundraising; and now promotes emergency survival products. He has been sued by Missouri’s attorney general for allegedly selling a fake “coronavirus cure”. His representatives have defended the product. Morningside received between $350,000 and $1m.

Popoff, of People United for Christ in California, was exposed for using an earpiece to receive radio messages from his wife so he could pretend to know personal details about his audience members during religious services. He also promotes miracle spring water and claims to be a prophet. His church received between $350,000 and $1m as well.

Word of Faith Fellowship, which the Associated Press calls a “secretive North Carolina sect”, also received funds. The organization has been investigated for allegedly abusing congregants and its leaders have faced charges from fraud to human trafficking, according to NPR. The group’s website responds to various allegations in a section called “Response to Media Lies”.

Pete Evans, who investigates religious fraud for the Trinity Foundation, said he had expected controversial churches would receive the aid.

“You’re getting free money, and that’s what these guys are good at,” Evans said.

Many of the leaders of the churches receiving funds are wealthy. Mac Hammond’s church, Living Word Christian Center in Minnesota, acquired a private jet on 11 March, just as the pandemic was beginning in the US, according to government records. Less than a month later, it was approved for between $2m and $5m in coronavirus aid.

Among the top loan recipients is Joyce Meyer Ministries, a Missouri-based Christian ministry with TV shows and radio programs. It received between $5m and $10m, even though it reported having $12m cash on hand at the end of 2019, according to an annual financial report.

Meyer’s own lavish lifestyle has come under scrutiny, including when her church was one of six of the biggest in America investigated during a Senate inquiry into the tax-exempt status of religious organizations in 2007.

In 2003, the St Louis Post-Dispatch published a four-part special report detailing her $10m corporate jet and $2m home and other houses.

Several religious groups whose leaders are reportedly Trump evangelical advisers took between $2m and $5m each.

Paula White’s City of Destiny received between $150,000 and $350,000. She is the chair of Trump’s Faith and Opportunity Initiative.

Eternal Word Television Network, a conservative Catholic network on which Trump appeared on 22 June to announce his executive order protecting statues that have been torn down by protesters, received between $2m and $5m.

The $3bn total does not include loans under $150,000, for which the SBA did not release full data. It is also the lower end of a range provided in data from the agency. At most, the religious organizations could have taken up to $7.5bn. The Guardian analysis includes all organizations listed under the industry code for “establishments primarily engaged in operating religious organizations”.

Some religious groups fall outside of that category and were not captured in this review.

Some non-ministry organizations received large sums too, including Friends of the Israel Defense Forces, which describes its mission as “to offer educational, cultural, recreational, and social services programs and facilities that provide hope, purpose, and life-changing support for the soldiers who protect Israel and Jews worldwide”. It received between $2m and $5m.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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RayThom
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God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by RayThom »

Hallelujah... and praise Je$u$.
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“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.” 

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TPFKA@W
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by TPFKA@W »

Can we just all agree that big money ministries are awful and need heavy taxing?

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Long Run
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by Long Run »

All entities that comply with the PPP, mainly paying furloughed workers not to work, qualify. As bad as the unemployment numbers have gotten, the PPP reduced the reported numbers significantly. Churches/religious organizations suffered along with everyone else, as did their employees; why single them out for disparate treatment?

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Guinevere
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by Guinevere »

Seriously Long Run? It’s simple. Because religious organizations are not subject to a a variety of laws that protect citizens *from* disparate treatment, they should not receive federal funds. I object to my tax dollars being used to support organizations that discriminate against women, that refuse to comply with the ACA and allow employees access to birth control, and which treat women as less than equal citizens. And that’s just one example.

Pay taxes and then maybe we can have a different conversation. Otherwise, you want to protect your jobs, take it up with your membership. Or your God.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

I agree, though for different reason. The church should give nothing to and receive nothing from the state. That's the real point of the separation clause (IMO). Religion must be independent of government.

In one giant step back from that, ordained ministers should pay income tax on money and the value of goods personally received and used. However, I'd start that tax at $100,000 p.a.

(Oh and FWIW, that subject line is not a quote from the Bible, in case anyone wondered)
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Long Run
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by Long Run »

I understand that there are those who want to exclude employees of religious groups (of whatever faith) from every government program, such as PPP. (and Social Security, I guess). My point is that the law is not favoring any religion or religious organizations in any way; it is treating them the same as any employer, and really treating their employees the same as any other employees. The goal, of course, has been to get money into the economy by having employers continue paying workers who were/are no longer working. This also applies to any tax exempt organization, so the argument that religious organizations do not pay taxes is irrelevant to the point of the PPP which is intended to provide replacement income to workers hammered by the COVID shutdowns. I don't see why you would treat employees of tax exempt entities any different than any other employees -- "we're all in this together" right?

Big RR
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by Big RR »

While some "income" is tax exempt, ministers generally pay income tax on their income (even social security); generally, they are considered to be self employed (so the church itself is not required to withhold or pay taxes), but many treat them as employees anyway (ours does).

Churches do not generally pay any taxes (including property taxes), but they will pay taxes in many jurisdictions) on income from businesses they conduct (like nursery schools or facilities rentals) and will pay property taxes on the proportion of the building used for them.

LR--while I agree with you, I agree with Guin, I don't want my tax dollars going to pay the salary of a clergy member whose job is to represent of promote a religion. Allow them to participate in programs they contribute to, like unemployment (or choose not to permit them to contribute or participate), but the government should not be participating in religion, even in an emergency such as this.

Additionally, I agree with Meade because churches should receive nothing from the state. These are not just nonprofits, they are something different which get a lot of benefits nonprofits do not (e.g. how many nonprofits can claim a broad privilege of communications between their members and a representative the way a priest and parishioner can?). Once the government gets a toe in the door, they will start to control the message. The founders understood this when they enacted the first amendment.

Big RR
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by Big RR »

Oh and FWIW, that subject line is not a quote from the Bible, in case anyone wondered

True, but there are similar quotes in the Bible; one I recall comes from one of Paul's letters (I don't have time to look it up) which says, roughly, those who will not work, will not eat; there are others as well.

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Crackpot
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by Crackpot »

There is a similar concept taught in the Bible but it is not the same as the libertarian mantra of the thread title.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by BoSoxGal »

So how do we all feel about the recent SCOTUS decisions requiring states to finance religious schools and also allowing said schools to discriminate?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

Big RR
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by Big RR »

I agree with Justice Breyer's comment "If, for 250 years, we have drawn a line at forcing taxpayers to pay the salaries of those who teach their faith from the pulpit, I do not see how we can today require Montana to adopt a different view respecting those who teach it in the classroom."

I honestly don't think it will benefit religious institutions the way they want either, one the government gets its nose into the tent, it will eventually start to call the shots. I no more want the government in my religion, than I want religion in the government.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

From each according to their ability; to each according to their need

Engels (not my cat Engels. The real one. They're both dead)
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

rubato
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by rubato »

The better Engels of our nature?


yrs,
rubato

ex-khobar Andy
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:56 pm
From each according to their ability; to each according to their need

Engels (not my cat Engels. The real one. They're both dead)
Marx, actually. The one in Highgate Cemetery, London. I thought maybe The Communist Manifesto (1848) but actually, according to Wikipedia, the original phrase (in German) was from his 1875 Critique of the Gotha Program.

He's dead, too.

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Joe Guy
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by Joe Guy »

"Fill out these forms and we will determine your eligibility for public assistance within 45 days."

Anonymous (dead too)

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

ex-khobar Andy wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:27 am
Marx, actually. The one in Highgate Cemetery, London. I thought maybe The Communist Manifesto (1848) but actually, according to Wikipedia, the original phrase (in German) was from his 1875 Critique of the Gotha Program.

He's dead, too.
Ha! We're both wrong. You didn't look far enough down the Wiki page. She say: "August Becker in 1844 described it as the basic principle of communism and Louis Blanc used it in 1851"

In 1951, Mel Blanc said, "Th-Th-The, Th-Th-The, Th-Th... That's all, folks!"
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

And going further down the page, Meade, it seems that your lot were there first. Acts 4:32 - 35, KJV has:
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
I hadn't placed you as a Marxist, Meade - but it's all becoming clearer now.

rubato
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by rubato »

So the Hutterites are really the "One True Church"?

yrs,
rubato

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: God looks after those who look after themselves

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Heh heh, Andy. Surely you read my interview in the Workers Press? And did I bump into you at the Alexandra Palace meeting in 1971? Build the Fourth International! Kill the bill! Those were the days - an ice pick in every hand, ready for Joe Stalin to come within arm's reach. Well, he was dead by then but it was a symbol.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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