Proper sport controversy.

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ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

I think there is an inbuilt US predilection for authority figures - Exhibit A, the very strange appeal of TFG to approximately 50% of the population. The major USA games - baseball, 'football', basketball and ice hockey - all need a central 'manager' figure who pulls all the strings constantly throughout the game. With what I call football and you (mostly) call soccer, the manager's job is basically getting them to the game. In fact in my day the manager was not allowed to coach from the sidelines and substitutions were not allowed - break a leg and you play on or come off and they carry on with 10 players. The manager even now has almost zero input once the game starts. And it's pretty much the same with rugby and cricket - the manager/coach does not play a big part once the game starts, and it's the captain on the field who makes the decisions.

And of course soccer/football requires almost no kit and we've all played games in which a pile of sweaters delineated the goal posts. So there is little opportunity for $$$$ sponsorships as there is for games such as the aforementioned and tennis and golf which require lots of expensive kit and expensive play areas.

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Bicycle Bill
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by Bicycle Bill »

You want my take on it? ............. ( :nana too bad, you're gonna get it anyway....)

Soccer isn't violent enough.

Football has always been a violent sport, and to put it bluntly, there's been a lot of discontent ever since the NFL started coming up with the rules to 'protect' the quarterbacks, and the kickers, and the kick returners — because it was seen as 'sissifying' the game.  Baseball has always had collisions, especially at the plate.  It's gotten to the point that if there's a play at home the incoming player doesn't even try to slide to avoid the tag ... they'll slam full-tilt into the catcher in the hopes of knocking the ball loose.

The scuffles and the shoving underneath the hoops on a basketball court sometimes resembles military training for hand-to-hand combat more than it does a "non-contact sport", and we all know that hockey players have always prided themselves on their toughness. They wore their scars and missing teeth as badges of honor, and when helmets were finally mandated there were exemptions to permit older players who had played without them to continue to go bare-headed, and even today there is usually one player on a team who is the designated "enforcer" or "bad boy".

And don't get me started on the rise of boxing/pro wrestling/the variety of mixed martial arts clashes — they're nothing more than gladiatorial combat without the weapons (and if you've ever seen the WWE with the chairs, tables, ladders, and god-knows-what-else coming into play, you know that they've already pole-vaulted over that line).  If half the stuff that goes on in those rings or octagons occurred on a street, someone would be going to jail charged with assault and battery, mayhem, or attempted manslaughter.

Soccer, on the other hand, at least still tries (and for the most part, succeeds) in toning down the violence ... to the point that one of the biggest issues is the 'flopping' of players — I saw one episode where a player brushed against his opponent and the player who was brushed went down like he'd been pole-axed — to try to DRAW warning cards against an opponent.  Hell, even auto racing is starting to look more like a day at the bumper cars or a 200-mph demolition derby where winning is more a factor of being fortunate enough to somehow survive the multi-car crashes than driving ability.

So until they allow something like "full contact soccer", with the players running around in flak jackets, pads, and helmets and crashing headlong into each other, it just ain't gonna fly with the majority of American fans looking to see blood, guts, and injuries here in the good ol' violent USA.

-"BB"-
Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?

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Gob
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by Gob »

*** says nothing***
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Big RR
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by Big RR »

Andy--
And of course soccer/football requires almost no kit and we've all played games in which a pile of sweaters delineated the goal posts.
As kids, we used to play (American) football the same way, often in the street or asphalt parking lots if fields were not available. It was technically "touch" football, but usually ended up being a modified form of tackle (knock the ball carrier down and then tag him). Pick up, no equipment football is a cherished childhood memory for many growing up in the US, although I will say that there are very few people out of their 20s that still play it (then again, few bare knuckle boxers or wrestlers are found older than 30 either).

As for the team coach, when I played in high school (in the 60s/70s), the coach often yelled coded plays in from the sideline, and we were permitted a limited number of substitutions (3 I think) per half. I don't know what the ex-US rules were then--except in the Olympics (and then only highlights) we never really saw soccer.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Gob wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:48 pm
*** says sings nothing***
FTFY
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Long Run
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by Long Run »

ex-khobar Andy wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:11 am
I think there is an inbuilt US predilection for authority figures -
But US women dominate and the factors you cite do not impact them. They, of course, benefit from a much higher level of societal support relative to most of the world. And they use their advantages to get to the top. Not sure why the men are not routinely a top five or ten squad given their similar advantages.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

FIFA released an official document in 2006 that said only 11% of the registered soccer players worldwide were women. More than half of the world’s total players were registered in the US.
Looking at the women's leagues in the UK (more precisely, England), there are 12 in the Premier group. Almost all the championships since 2000 have been won by Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool or Manchester City, even counting the prior league formations. (Fulham crept in there somehow).

There is very little support (paying) for the women's game in the UK, yet England fields a strong national team that does get support (paying). The talent pool is small because the number of professional teams is small. There is nothing comparable to the American college training programs and competition, let alone high school and earlier.

In the USA, there is greater development of women's soccer from high school on - and there is the huge "not at all professional" college base engaged in national competition for the US National team to draw on. Title XI created the conditions for large numbers of girls to become engaged in the sport; and as is true of all pro sports, post-uni opportunities for the many college players are limited to the 12 teams of the major US women's pro league.

Compared to the ROW, a much greater number of women in the USA begin training early and compete at a semi-professional level (quality of play) for their college years. The relative disinterest in the USA for the men's game left a huge space for 51% of the population to fully support their girls/women and make a sport "their own". Plainly put, the women worked harder to be the best.
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by Burning Petard »

One criticism I hear frequently in the USA against soccer is that there is not enough scoring. The game is just boring with such low scores.

OK, then why not more attention to Cricket? From a point of near complete ignorance, it seems to me typical Cricket scores are higher than typical basketball.

snailgate

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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by BoSoxGal »

Burning Petard wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:45 am
One criticism I hear frequently in the USA against soccer is that there is not enough scoring. The game is just boring with such low scores.

OK, then why not more attention to Cricket? From a point of near complete ignorance, it seems to me typical Cricket scores are higher than typical basketball.

snailgate
This criticism makes no sense to me; sport is about both offense and defense and any baseball fan would tell you there is nothing more thrilling to watch than a no hitter game. It’s watching sport brilliance - and luck - unfold in real time. Whereas nobody really enjoys a blowout, not even the fans of the winning team - it’s demoralizing to see such a bad mismatch unfold.

Honestly I think soccer is one of the few sports ball games I enjoy watching on occasion, because the game is so fast and athletic and super strong on defense. I think that makes for a much more interesting game. But then growing up my favorite sport to watch was ice hockey, for the same reasons (oh and Wayne Gretzky, that was another reason lol).
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

There is deep seated tribal stuff in football (soccer) which is why I watch the World Cup with one eye - but frankly the game is boring nowadays. Too much emphasis on defense and trying to win that all important penalty or at least a free kick in range of goal. Characters like Maradona or George Best are missing. Messi is good but not in their league. OK Maradona put England out of the 1986 WC with the 'Hand of God' goal but the guy was mesmerizing. (Don't get me wrong - England deserved to lose that game.) One reason Gretzky was so wonderful during his Edmonton days is that the team were in all out attack mode all the time. They would win games 7 - 5. Grant Fuhr was widely considered one of the best goalies in the league but he had a very high Goals Against Average.

If I had to pay to go to a football/soccer game I think I'd choose a women's game. More emphasis on skill, less on showboating for a penalty.

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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Those who don't watch, don't know. Some games are not good - England vs USA for example was awful. Both teams played poorly and with little imagination.

But Saudi Arabia 2-1 vs Argentina? Not at all dull. Japan over Germany same score? Canada's inspiring "everything but the net" 1-0 loss to Belgium was a superb game (Belgium being favored to win it all but now in danger of being out). And the 3-2 matches . . . Portugal/Ghana, South Kora/Ghana, and the 3-3 Cameroon/Serbia thriller . . . Not to mention all the 2-0, 6-2, 7-0 results . . .

40 matches played - 5 were 0-0 (see comment on England/USA above)

As to the players - riiiiiight. Here's the 50 best (per ESPN) and I wouldn't argue with most, though there are a lot of swan-songs (Messi, that twat Ronaldo, Lewandowski and so on). Those who watch, know who Mbappe is, Vini Jr., Phil Foden, Joao Cancelo, Alphonso Davis, Gabriel Jesus . . . And yes, I note that the listed Mane was not available for the competition but he's rightfully on the brilliant footballer list.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/fifa-world- ... qatar-2022

In summary, :nana
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by Big RR »

There are good and bad games in all sports, but the thing I enjoy about soccer is that the defense is just as important as the offense. But I must disagree with BSG about people loving close defensive games and abhorring blowouts--many fans I know prefer the opposite. Indeed, I have seen American football become more and more offensive directed (with the passing game preferred over the run--which I have heard many describe as "three downs and a cloud of dust"), bad baseball has become more of a hitters game (with home runs celebrated far more than pitching brilliance--I see a homerun derby as part of the All Star break, but no strike out derby); sure, no hitters are celebrated (mainly because they are so rare IMHO), nbut fans seems to want to see hitting power and scoring more. Indeed, I recall Lord Jim telling me I could not be a baseball fan (I am not, but I believe he was one) because I said my favorite games to watch were pitching duels. Basketball (especially at the professional level) has also been grossly changed over the years to emphasize offense over defense (the shot clock, e.g.) , And if you look at boxing, many "fans" prefer the quick knockout over the nuanced 12 round fight. I can't speak for the rest of the word, but IMHO Americans seem to prefer individual effort over team effort, and often celebrate the offense over defense. There are some fans who are different, but most fall in the former category.

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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by Sue U »

Big RR wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:43 pm
There are good and bad games in all sports, but the thing I enjoy about soccer is that the defense is just as important as the offense. But I must disagree with BSG about people loving close defensive games and abhorring blowouts--many fans I know prefer the opposite.

***

I can't speak for the rest of the word, but IMHO Americans seem to prefer individual effort over team effort, and often celebrate the offense over defense. There are some fans who are different, but most fall in the former category.
I'm not disagreeing about what "most" may prefer, but I fall into the same category as BSG. When I first learned about soccer, my thought was "Oh it's basically ice hockey, but with a ball on grass." As my youngest played her way through the youth leagues and high school I really developed an appreciation for the game, and I can certainly see why it's called "the beautiful game." I think the penalty-drawing histrionics on the men's side range from mildly amusing to frankly off-putting (you rarely see that in women's play), but I guess some people watch NASCAR for the crashes, too. For me, the it's the skill of play and precision teamwork getting to the goal that make football/soccer so interesting and enjoyable to watch, not the scoring itself.

ETA:

The next World Cup will be here in North America, with the vast majority of matches played in the U.S., many in the NY/NJ area (Meadowlands will be a huge venue). I will bet that every US game is a sell-out. If soccer had the same mass media exposure (prime time network broadcast of games) that other sports do, I have no doubt that it would rapidly eclipse both baseball and American football in popularity.
GAH!

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Long Run
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

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Sue U wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:29 pm
If soccer had the same mass media exposure (prime time network broadcast of games) that other sports do, I have no doubt that it would rapidly eclipse both baseball and American football in popularity.
People have been saying this for over 30 years, while soccer's popularity has grown only slowly and marginally The reason soccer does not get the same mass media exposure is the same reason other modestly popular sports get only limited exposure -- the media exposure is based on the popularity of the sport, not the other way around.

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Re: Proper sport controversy.

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Long Run wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:36 pm
Sue U wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:29 pm
If soccer had the same mass media exposure (prime time network broadcast of games) that other sports do, I have no doubt that it would rapidly eclipse both baseball and American football in popularity.
People have been saying this for over 30 years, while soccer's popularity has grown only slowly and marginally The reason soccer does not get the same mass media exposure is the same reason other modestly popular sports get only limited exposure -- the media exposure is based on the popularity of the sport, not the other way around.
Something like 5 billion people are watching the World Cup of real football. The NFL could never ever get numbers like that.
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Long Run wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:36 pm
The reason soccer does not get the same mass media exposure is the same reason other modestly popular sports get only limited exposure -- the media exposure is based on the popularity of the sport, not the other way around.
I think not. The problem for real football in the USA is that it doesn't stop every few minutes in order for the media to show commercials. You surely don't believe that a 60 minute NFL game takes 3 hours or more to play because of strategic time-outs taken? And the play-clock. America hates continuous-action sports - no time to get that beer or waddle to the fridge for healthy snacks.

Watch out you gringos. The USA is becoming Hispanic and soccer is well supported in the States, not to mention European and Asian immigrants. We are taking all your base.
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Long Run
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by Long Run »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:58 pm

Something like 5 billion people are watching the World Cup of real football. The NFL could never ever get numbers like that.
Irrelevant to the question of why in the US there is non-stop coverage of the NFL, while soccer and other internationally popular sports get a fraction of the mass media coverage. With more outlets than ever, though, if you are a soccer fan, you can find plenty of good soccer on the TV or streaming. Same with pretty much any sport.

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Gob
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by Gob »

Was someone moaning about low score matches? Come over to a proper sport...

Pakistan are at 499 - 7, chasing England's 657 all out
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ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Most likely end point is a draw. Unless the Pakistani tail flags completely and England mops them up for little damage before lunch on Sunday; the England batsmen wag the willow for a late declaration before stumps leaving Pakistan a nervous half hour in the gathering gloom of a Rawalpindi December; and Jimmy Anderson rearranges the night watchman's furniture. Then we might see a result.

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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by Econoline »

Recently seen/stolen from some complete stranger on Twitter: "If you want to know why Americans aren’t into soccer it’s because to us it looks like 'Riverdance' with a ball."
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