Bush-Gore Redux?

[oldr_n_wsr]

Come on Scooter, the electoral college notwithstanding, are here any monarchs in the world that are elected? None I am aware of.

Well, there's the pope, granted voted on by an extremely small electorate (members of the College of Cardinals under 80).

Is the pope leading a country?

[Crackpot]

Actually Yes

[Andrew D]

Actually, no.

[Lord Jim]

No, I believe that's correct:

The pope (from Latin: papa; from Greek: πάππας (pappas),[1] a child's word for father)[2] is the Bishop of Rome and the leader of the worldwide Catholic Church.[3] In the Catholic Church, the Pope is regarded as the successor of Saint Peter, the Apostle. The current office-holder is Pope Benedict XVI, who was elected in a papal conclave on 19 April 2005.[nb 1]

The office of the pope is known as the papacy. His ecclesiastical jurisdiction is often called the "Holy See" (Sancta Sedes in Latin), or the "Apostolic See" based upon the Church tradition that the Apostles Saint Peter and Saint Paul were martyred in Rome. The pope is also head of state of Vatican City,[4] a sovereign city-state entirely enclaved within the city of Rome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope

[Lord Jim]

I'll tell you one thing...

I am not going to get myself into the middle of an ecclesiastical biblical discussion between Meade and Andrew...

I know that both of you gentlemen know more about this subject than I could hope to learn in a Month Of Sundays...(no pun intended... )

[Andrew D]

Look at the source cited in note 4 of what you just quoted, Lord Jim.

It is the Vatican's own website.

Somehow, "the Vatican is a country because it says so" does not persuade me.

We have been over this before. There are four essential attributes of a nation (in international law, a "state"). The Vatican fails the first one: a permanent population.

Look at the current law on Vatican "citizenship":

In February of 2009 Pope Benedict XVI appointed an ad hoc commission with the purpose of drafting a new citizenship law. This commission presented a draft bill to the Pope, who approved it and enacted it as Law n. CXXXI of February 22 of 2011. This Law covers four main aspects of the life in the Vatican City State: citizenship, residence, access, and the penalties for infringement thereof.

Under the new legal regimen, citizenship can be acquired by law (ex iure) or by administrative decision. Ex iure citizenship is granted to only three classes of persons: (a) the Cardinals resident in the Vatican City State or in Rome; (b) the Holy See’s diplomats; and (c) the persons who reside in Vatican City State by reason of their office or service. This last class includes the members of the Swiss Guard.

Pursuant to Law n. CXXXI, the acquisition of citizenship by administrative decision can only be requested in three situations: (a) by residents of the Vatican City State when they are authorized by reason of their office or service; (b) by the persons who have obtained papal authorization to reside in the State, independently of any other conditions; and (c) by the spouses and children of current citizens, who are also residents, of the Vatican City State.

Notice something about that law:

Every single "citizen" of the Vatican comes from somewhere else.

No one acquires Vatican "citizenship" by virtue of having been born in the Vatican. No one acquires Vatican "citizenship" by virtue of being the child of a Vatican "citizen".

The population of the Vatican is entirely transient.

And that is the exact opposite of "a permanent population".

[Andrew D]

Nothing ecclesiastical or biblical about it, Lord Jim (at least as far as whether the Vatican is a country).

Just a simple observation of the facts: The population of the Vatican is entirely transient. International law requires -- for "[t]he state as a person of international law" -- "a permanent population".

The Vatican has no permanent population; therefore, the Vatican is not a "state as a person of international law".

There really is nothing more to it.

[Lord Jim]

Well, then perhaps I'm wrong on this:

Vatican City Listeni/ˈvætɨkən ˈsɪti/, or Vatican City State,[13] in Italian officially Stato della Città del Vaticano (pronounced [ˈstaːto della t͡ʃitˈta del vatiˈkaːno]),[14] is a landlocked sovereign city-state whose territory consists of a walled enclave within the city of Rome, Italy. It has an area of approximately 44 hectares (110 acres), and a population of just over 800.[5][15] This makes Vatican City the smallest independent state in the world by both area and population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City

[Andrew D]

Notice that the Wikipedia article cites exactly nothing for the claim which you have bolded.