Wealthy Liberal Science Deniers...

[Big RR]

oldr---these are the discussions we should be having, but don't. Big pharma wants the guaranteed market a legal requirement gives them and doesn't want to have the discussion, preferring instead to resort to scare tactics--(like Merck's ad where the neighbors talk about a kid who died from chicken pox) or to characterize those who raise any question as crackpots (and the anti-vaccine crowd help them immensely in this regard). We need to have discussions of the costs vs the benefits for many medical practices, including vaccines, and except for significant public health risks, the government shouldn't immediately team up with big pharma. But it requires an educational effort and a willingness to listen to all sides, something people and big corporations don't want to do.

[Scooter]

I was disappointed when my state began requiring chicken pox immunization. I always felt getting the disease was a better option.

Actually not. Getting chicken pox opens you up to getting shingles later in life, and believe me when I say that it can be extremely debilitating. Even after the acute phase was over, I was unable to drive for almost six months because it affected my right leg and I would get completely unpredictable stabbing pain and/or spasms that would shoot right down my leg.

[Lord Jim]

Btw Jim you forgot about GMOs.

That's an excellent point CP...

Another area where the "science deniers" come primarily from the left end of the political spectrum...

What have world’s top independent science organizations concluded about the safety of GMOs? The Genetic Literacy Project has released an infographic on crop biotechnology safety.

Many anti-GMO activists and even some mainstream commentators claim there is a “debate” over the safety of genetically modified crops and foods. That is not the case. The bans that have been imposed in some countries on GMO crops or foods are political; they were voted in by politicians over the objections of independent international science organizations.

Every major scientific body and regulatory agency in the world has reviewed the research about GMOs and openly declared crop biotechnology and the foods currently available for sale to be safe. GM crops are as safe–and in the case of nutritionally enhanced varieties, such as Golden Rice, healthier–than conventional and organic crops. The consensus over the health and safety is as strong as the consensus that we are undergoing human induced climate change, vaccines are beneficial and not harmful and evolution is a fact.

Last month the Genetic Literacy Project posted its first ever infographic: “10 myths about crop biotechnology”. The GLP now has released the second infographic in its ongoing series: “International science organizations on crop biotechnology safety.”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentine/2 ... -weigh-in/

[Big RR]

Scooter--whether the VZV vaccine protects against later contracting shingles is still up in the air; the CDC even concedes the attenuated virus used in the vaccine can cause later shingles, although it is less common than in those who contracted chickenpox. However, as the immunity is not perpetual, it is uncertain whether one who received the chickenpox vaccine as a child can still contract VZV and get shingles, and current guidelines still recommend those persons to get the shingles vaccine.

The pain you are discussing is not shingles per se, but sounds post herpetic neuralgia, a condition sometimes seen with shingles, and the shingles vaccine is recommended to avoid that as well.

[BoSoxGal]

My dear friend Linda, who battled breast cancer for 14 years and through 3 recurrences and all the associated awful treatment, said that getting shingles was the most awful experience in terms of illness that she'd ever had.

This was prior to her death from cancer; I'm sure that was more painful, because I saw every moment of it.

[rubato]

Science denialism typifies Republicans and Conservatives. You can easily prove this by their party platform is based on rejection of science in multiple respects and their appeal to antique superstitions as their 'authority'.


yrs,
rubato

Here we have an excellent example of the type of garbage that served as the inspiration for starting this thread...

From the article in the OP we can see that Republicans and Conservatives don't have a monopoly on "science denial" and from the post quoted above, we can see that they don't have a monopoly on ignorance, simplistic thinking, or bigotry either...

Show where the Democratic party has advocated science denialism similar to Republicans lying about global warming? Natural selection? Obamacare?

Liar.

yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

I was disappointed when my state began requiring chicken pox immunization. I always felt getting the disease was a better option.

Actually not. Getting chicken pox opens you up to getting shingles later in life, and believe me when I say that it can be extremely debilitating. Even after the acute phase was over, I was unable to drive for almost six months because it affected my right leg and I would get completely unpredictable stabbing pain and/or spasms that would shoot right down my leg.

Shingles can be devastating. A vaccine that only costs $150.00 and can reduce the chance of getting shingles by an order of magnitude is a stone bargain in my book. I had a 'mild' case and was immediately offered hydromorphone for it. The dermatome involved hurt for the next 12 months every time I stood under the shower. I know of a lot of people who have had it much worse.


But hey, you can follow Big RR's advice and call a lawyer if you get shingles! Sue the asshole who told you not to get the vaccine.



yrs,
rubato

[Lord Jim]

Show where the Democratic party has advocated science denialism similar to Republicans lying about global warming? Natural selection? Obamacare?

Liar.

yrs,
rubato

A debate about the effects of Obamacare involves '"science denialism"?

LMFAO...

You really are a silly little man...

ETA:

Someone 'round these parts suggested a little while ago that I, "can't stand rubato"...

Nothing could be further from the truth...

While I certainly wouldn't want to have him as someone I had to deal with in business, or as a neighbor, (or God forbid as a relative or an in-law... )

I am delighted to have his presence on this board...

Aside from the way he aids me in the study of aberrant human psychology, (a hobby of mine) he serves as a constant reminder to others that not all ignorant, simpleminded, bigoted fools are Conservatives...

There's no way that I could make that point as effectively as rubato does for me...

I'm actually a fan of rubato's...

[Big RR]

But hey, you can follow Big RR's advice and call a lawyer if you get shingles! Sue the asshole who told you not to get the vaccine.

Must you start shit in every thread? I thought we (those who were participating in this thread) were having a serious discussion, but you have to start up again with pointless comments directed at someone who didn't attack, or even address, you at all. Good job, derailing another discussion; I'm sure everyone appreciates it

[Lord Jim]

If any cared about facts it would be obvious that I respond in kind, but far less often, and to a lesser degree. But that is for those who care about facts.


yrs,
rubato

[oldr_n_wsr]

We need to have discussions of the costs vs the benefits for many medical practices, including vaccines, and except for significant public health risks, the government shouldn't immediately team up with big pharma.

I agree but I'm sure some lobbiests would not, nor would their benefactors.
I see all over "get your flu vaccine here" or "get your shingles shot here" on CVS and Walgreen signs. (which seem to be building stores on every other street corner) Then there are the commercials on TV telling you to ask your doctor to get whatever drug they selling. While it's good to be an infromed person, the ads are only going to "highlight" the benefits and downplay the adverse affects (like that on the small print at the end of the ad).
Having a good relationship with your PCP is best.

[Big RR]

oldr--you're right about the corporate sponsored ads, but we could have an open discussion if we demanded it. A lot of the information is there for whoever wants to see it, but an open discussion is going to mean we will change the way we view healthcare, and that we will take some responsibility for our own decisions. An open relationship with your healthcare providers is a necessity, and many physicians encourage this, but some of the others prefer to have their advice followed without question ("doctor's orders"). At some point we are going to have to realize that healthcare costs a lot and, like other services, we will have to balance that cost with the benefits conferred, both on a individual and a societal basis.

[TPFKA@W]

I am all for infants and children being mandated to receive certain vaccines. It's not their fault their parents are trying to do what's worst for the little trippers.

Adults get to make up their own minds for themselves. I say it's a good idea to get flu and pneumonia shots, because flu and pneumonia still kill people. If you can avoid either I say it's a good idea. Updating your DTaP is a good idea and I did mine a few years ago. I had the HepB vaccine years ago and need to have a titer drawn and see if I need an update on that.

With respect to other vaccines one should research and decide for oneself what is best.

You know, everything in medicine started out as a good thing to help people. Somewhere along the lines some greedy coproate bastard gets a hold and turns everything into a money maker, with the interests of humans coming a long and distant second place after profit. One example is hospice. Hospice was to help those with no hope of recovery make the smoothest transition to the land of the non-living, to keep them as pain free as possible and offer support to loved ones during that period. Now any fucking body gets on hospice, and, and this really blew me away, AND now they get to be full codes if they want to be. When I found this out I was fit to be tied. I pretty much hate CPR anyway. I have never seen anyone saved by it, ever. Most of the time, if it is successful the people probably weren't in a full arrest in the first place, or it was done with the addition of drugs. I have had to perform it on folks who have zero shot at recovery, in one case lividity was evident (the blood pools and there is a deep purple color where the body is on contact with the bed, or floor) and the patient had a fresh CABG so I got to feel and hear the sternum and ribs crunching away under my hands. But I digress. Hospice became about profit instead of just helping, so now you get to be a full code instead of dealing with your denial.

It's just the shitz. I wanted to retire on the spot when I was told that news.

[Guinevere]

@W during this last round of hospitalization "palliative care" was pushed on my Mom and I at a hospital to be named later, in a manner that went from "its just a consult" to suggesting that she change her code status, turn off her life-giving pacer, and move to hospice care -- in about a day -- without any medical rationale or reason and clearly because of the "palliative care" team agenda pushing. It was absolutely insane and quite frightening. If we had not pushed back, asked questions, and challenged assumptions (which were shown to be incorrect), she'd be dead.

Instead, she's home from rehab and doing better than ever.

Crazy.

(although, yes, please, people do need to understand far more what happens when you code, what is done to you, and what its chances of success really are --- most have no clue, only have a sense of the fantasy version they see on tv. At several points during our hospital odyssey this winter, someone coded in the room next to Mom (in CICU). I got to see and hear it (one room there was no curtain, only a glass door). I had to walk out of the unit, it was so incredibly difficult and upsetting. And neither of them survived).

[TPFKA@W]

Well congratulations to both of you for surviving a trip through healthcare land. Yeah, sometimes some of the players have an agenda that they push, one way or another.

I hope your Mamma has many more fine years and that you both have the wisdom to recognize when it is the right time to say no more. That's the hard part.

[Gob]

Here's a checklist of the vaccines that are routinely offered to everyone in the UK for free on the NHS, and the ages at which they should ideally be given.

If you're not sure whether you or your child have had all your routine vaccinations, ask your GP or practice nurse to find out for you. It may be possible to "catch up" later in life.

Try to make sure you or your child have vaccinations delivered on time to ensure protection. If you're going to be away from the GP surgery when a vaccination is due, talk to your doctor. It may be possible to arrange for vaccination at a different location.

2 months

5-in-1 (DTaP/IPV/Hib) vaccine – this single jab contains vaccines to protect against five separate diseases: diphtheria, tetanus, whooping cough (pertussis), polio and Haemophilus influenzae type b (known as Hib – a bacterial infection that can cause severe pneumonia or meningitis in young children)

Pneumococcal (PCV) vaccine

Rotavirus vaccine

3 months

5-in-1 (DTaP/IPV/Hib) vaccine, second dose

Meningitis C

Rotavirus vaccine, second dose

4 months

5-in-1 (DTaP/IPV/Hib) vaccine, third dose

Pneumococcal (PCV) vaccine, second dose

Between 12 and 13 months

Hib/Men C booster, given as a single jab containing meningitis C (second dose) and Hib (fourth dose)

Measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine, given as a single jab

Pneumococcal (PCV) vaccine, third dose

2, 3 and 4 years

Children's flu vaccine (annual)

3 years and 4 months, or soon after

Measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine, second dose

4-in-1 (DTaP/IPV) pre-school booster, given as a single jab containing vaccines against diphtheria, tetanus, whooping cough (pertussis) and polio

Around 12-13 years (girls only)

HPV vaccine, which protects against cervical cancer – two injections given between six months and 2 years apart

Around 13-18 years

3-in-1 (Td/IPV) teenage booster, given as a single jab and contains vaccines against diphtheria, tetanus and polio

Around 13-15 years

Meningitis C booster

18-25 years

Men C vaccine for students

65 and over

Flu (every year)

Pneumococcal (PPV) vaccine

70 years

Shingles vaccine

[Big RR]

Gob--are all of these mandated or just offered? For the childhood vaccines, if they are mandated, the three that jump out at me are the flu vaccine (which has been discussed previously in this thread), the pneumonia vaccine, and the vaccine against rotavirus. Are either major problems in the UK? I can't speak for rotavirus, but the problem I see with pneumococcal is that only certain epitopes are covered, so partial immunity, at best, is obtained. Even some of the latter multivalent vaccines are not comprehensive. But pneumonia can be a fairly serious disease, so it's a toss up and deserves a discussion with the pediatrician. Don't know too much about rotavirus, but as I recall it is a GI disease which can infect infants and young children (although not exclusively), and while it is not dangerous in and of itself, dehydration may result from the severe diarrhea. Again, definitely worth a discussion, based on how prevalent the disease is.

[Gob]

As it states BigRR, they are offered.