What not to wear

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Andrew D
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Re: What not to wear

Post by Andrew D »

Guinevere wrote:I come down somewhere between Andrew and rubato on the point. I think we are lucky to live in a time when there is quite a lot of freedom regarding how we dress, even in a professional setting ....
That freedom exists for women, not for men. In a professional setting, you can wear a pantsuit. You can wear a dress. You can wear a blouse and skirt. I can wear nothing but a suit (or, maybe, a combination of suit elements; e.g., a suit jacket with slacks that are not from that suit).

Your clothes can be any color you want. You can show up for work in black, blue, green, lavender, yellow, red ... whatever. Your clothes can have stripes of any width going in any direction, polka dots, etc. I have some color choices, but if I show up in a suit -- or even a shirt -- that has alternating black and white diagonal stripes (of equal width), that's "unprofessional". (Let alone my showing up in a yellow suit with black polka dots.)

You can wear something with a neckline that is actually at your neck, or you can wear something with a neckline considerably lower (within limits -- a breast-exposing plunge is probably unaccepted -- but still affording you considerable choice). I must wear a necktie, a garment which serves absolutely no useful purpose and should go the way of the codpiece.

You can wear earrings of just about any sort you like. I can probably get away with a stud or two (no more than one in each ear) and maybe even a minuscule hoop, but if I show up wearing an earring that actually has something -- anything -- hanging from it, that's "unprofessional".

And it's not just clothing. You can wear your hair cut Marine-Corps short or at the collar and just covering your ears or shoulder-length or down to your waist. If I wear my hair any longer than collar-length, that's "unprofessional". (You can also wear in your hair a bow or a comb or those things that look like knitting needles; I am not permitted to wear my hair long enough to accommodate any such thing.)

In short, women have "quite a lot of freedom regarding how [they] dress," but in professional settings, men have almost none.

-------------------------

More fundamentally, the whole idea of "professional" dress is just bullshit. The substance of my work is the quality of my research, my analysis, and my articulation of positions and their bases. None of that has anything at all to do with what clothes I am wearing.

Many professionals work in circumstances where they rarely, if ever, encounter people other than their co-workers. Many accountants, for example, work in their offices and never see the people for whom they are providing accounting services. (For that matter, I have done work for people I've never even laid eyes on.) And that is true of many people in many different professions.

I use professionals to prepare my income tax forms. (I used to do my own, but the self-employment stuff is a pain in the ass, and I might miss something.) I couldn't care less whether the person doing my taxes does them while wearing a suit or wearing sweatpants and a T-shirt or bare-ass naked. Why should I?

And even when professionals do encounter their clients, so what? The whole "dress code" thing is nothing but mutually reinforcing stupidity: The lawyer dresses "professionally," because (s)he thinks that the client expects it; the client dresses "professionally," because (s)he things that the lawyer expects it. The lawyer and the client both know that the only correlation (which is not strong but does exist) between the quality of the work and the formality of the dress is inverse: Both would be able to focus better on the work if they weren't pulling at their collars to relieve throat constriction, struggling to avoid rearranging their breasts or genitals in the presence of the other person, and so forth.

But each continues to play the game, because each thinks that the other expects it -- that otherwise, each will think less of the other. And so the game goes on, to the benefit of no one except those who manufacture, tailor, and care for the garments.

The truth of the matter is pretty simple: Dressing "professionally" bears the same kind of relationship to actual professionalism as children's dress-up games bear to actual adulthood.

The idea that people should dress "professionally" makes no more sense than does the idea that lawyers should show up in court wearing powdered wigs. We've long since done away with the latter, and it is long past time for us to do away with the former.
Reason is valuable only when it performs against the wordless physical background of the universe.

oldr_n_wsr
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Re: What not to wear

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

My Cousin Vinny comes to mind. :D

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loCAtek
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Re: What not to wear

Post by loCAtek »

You bring up two forms of social interaction there; gender and occupational.

All of that depends on the profession, if I showed up to work in a skirt and heels; no matter how modestly worn, I'd be seen as unprofessional. However, while jeans and work shirts advertise I understand the needs of my profession, a few nuances do express my femininity. ( In my biz, men and women wear long hair. Just be sure to braid it and tie it back for safety reasons) My colors are a little brighter, my pattern themes a little flowerier and I don't wear much make-up but try to stay cleaner than the guys by constant baby-wiping.
Trying to be professional is understood, while trying to be something I'm not, that is: a man, is not. <Side psycho-babble> I've noticed that when asked why I decided to be a welder, if I say it's because I can do a man's job; I get sneers and scoffing. If I say it's because the money is really good and I can support myself as an independent woman; I get nods and supportive grunts, </side psycho babble>.

Sharing a profession is acceptable, completely blurring gender signs is not. Even if you want to advertise you're GLBT, that has to be accompanied by the right signals. A lesbian woman I work with, who's highly respected for her quality work in electrical assembly, doesn't dress femininely, nor dresses exactly masculine either. The combination of short hair and loose clothes says she's a dyke, and she wants to attract another like-minded woman. That she wanted to know if I was attracted to her was hinted at, but I politely declined (just because I'm a welder doesn't mean I'm lesbian) ... BTW just as many guys hint at the same thing ;)

Two things are always going on in the work place: the professional relationships and the social (including sexual) relationships. Much of that is being communicated by the clothes.

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Long Run
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Re: What not to wear

Post by Long Run »

Can we file this article under "No, duh"?

Gob, please tell me you don't where those socks with your Keens.

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alice
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Re: What not to wear

Post by alice »

The combination of short hair and loose clothes says she's a dyke, ...
That's a pretty big generalisation.
I know straight women who have short hair and wear 'loose clothes' (including my sister - happily married to a man for something like 30 years).
And I have a couple of lesbian friends who don't wear short hair or loose clothing as an announcement of their sexual preference. I work with, and interact with during work, a large number of people, and with very, very few exceptions I would not be able to identify 'straight' or 'gay' based just on clothing or hairstyle, or even mannerisms. The few exceptions are those who do, by their choice and own individual personality, want to portray a more obvious picture of their sexual persuasions - and in those cases there is a 'whole picture' that tells you, not just hairstyle and clothing.

On a celebrity level: Ellen went many years with her short hair and particular style of clothing etc without the general public leaping to the assumptionthat she was gay. And the woman she's married to has long blonde hair and generally tight clothing and was for many years considered to be straight. And the lady that Portia had a long term relationship with before Ellen (I can't remember her name) had long black hair and wore tight clothing. Nothing 'said' any of those people were 'dykes'.
Life is like photography. You use the negative to develop.

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The Hen
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Re: What not to wear

Post by The Hen »

Long Run wrote:Can we file this article under "No, duh"?

Gob, please tell me you don't where those socks with your Keens.
He does.

I am often very embarrassed.

Like yesterday, when he was picking me up from work. He turned up just wearing a pair of shorts.

I wouldn't have minded that, but he then got out of the car, had a stretch, a look around and a scratch before getting back into the car.

We then went to the shops. I had agreed to go in and by everything. He saw there was a wine tasting, so he got out of the car and ran into the store to get his free drink.

I followed behind him and covered his nipples with my hands and apologised to the young lady that was standing there was a shocked look on her face trying to sell wine.

"Please excuse my husband's nipples", I said. After doing the shopping I went back to the wine seller. Gob was no where to be seen.

"Where'd he go?" I asked.

"Back to the car, "she replied.

He then popped back out and shouted at me which wine was his favourite. I bought two bottles. For that I got a free picnic blanket that the young lady ran out to the Gob. "He can wear this next time he gets out of the car", she said.

:D
Bah!

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Gob
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Re: What not to wear

Post by Gob »

Fuck it...

I'm too old to worry about what I look like. It was hot, I'd been gardening, a pair of shorts was all that was needed.

I may have smelled like month dead tramp after working in the garden, but hell, I was only after her for her wine, and she seemed glad to give me as much as I wanted.

One of the glasses had a dead fly in it, I should have sued. (Though it probably dropped off me.)

And in any case, I got a free blanket to go away...
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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loCAtek
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Re: What not to wear

Post by loCAtek »

alice wrote:
The combination of short hair and loose clothes says she's a dyke, ...
That's a pretty big generalisation.


It is, I didn't go into length about her overall 'look'. By short, I mean she wears a fade: trimmed very short around the sides with only an inch on top. By loose I mean, it 'blocks' her figure, makes her lines straighter, rather than accentuating her curves. (Which is one reason I still wear a belt, it's a work belt, but I tighten it a bit to keep that hour-class shape that says 'female'.) Her T-shirt colors are solids, if not predominately flat white. If my co-worker didn't have boobs, you'd think she was a guy. It's true she's not a 'lipstick lesbian' and of course not all homosexual women dress butch, but the clincher was her 'more than friendly' interest in me. I don't always spot a dyke, til she hits on me. Granted, clothes don't always make the woman ;)

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loCAtek
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Re: What not to wear

Post by loCAtek »

Gob's a rebel, and he wants the world to know it! :D






... that's why he started this place! :ok



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Daisy
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Re: What not to wear

Post by Daisy »

The Hen wrote:
Long Run wrote:Can we file this article under "No, duh"?

Gob, please tell me you don't where those socks with your Keens.
He does.

I am often very embarrassed.

Like yesterday, when he was picking me up from work. He turned up just wearing a pair of shorts.

I wouldn't have minded that, but he then got out of the car, had a stretch, a look around and a scratch before getting back into the car.

We then went to the shops. I had agreed to go in and by everything. He saw there was a wine tasting, so he got out of the car and ran into the store to get his free drink.

I followed behind him and covered his nipples with my hands and apologised to the young lady that was standing there was a shocked look on her face trying to sell wine.

"Please excuse my husband's nipples", I said. After doing the shopping I went back to the wine seller. Gob was no where to be seen.

"Where'd he go?" I asked.

"Back to the car, "she replied.

He then popped back out and shouted at me which wine was his favourite. I bought two bottles. For that I got a free picnic blanket that the young lady ran out to the Gob. "He can wear this next time he gets out of the car", she said.

:D

Right I've just had one MacBook sent for repair for a tea related instance ....

This was very nearly another!

What's worse is I'm guessing the type of shorts he was wearing weren't bermuda length... and were probably a beigey grey?

Am I Right?

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SisterMaryFellatio
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Re: What not to wear

Post by SisterMaryFellatio »

Oh Hen i havn't laughed that much in a long time. It sounds like something out of The Simpsons!

Personally had it been Sean i would have denied all knowledge and run screaming "get him away from me"


I can only imagine the poor girl in the bottle shop and what went thru her head when she saw Australia's answer to Compo come thru the door!

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Gob
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Re: What not to wear

Post by Gob »

SisterMaryFellatio wrote: I can only imagine the poor girl in the bottle shop and what went thru her head when she saw Australia's answer to George Clooney come thru the door!

Fixed that for you.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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The Hen
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Re: What not to wear

Post by The Hen »

Daisy wrote: What's worse is I'm guessing the type of shorts he was wearing weren't bermuda length... and were probably a beigey grey?

Am I Right?
I'm a frayed knot Daisy.

The shorts were definitely Bermuda length. They were khaki in colour and slung low on his hips.

I am just grateful the Hatch was with her Dad. She would have been MORTIFIED!

(Gob LOVES mortifying the Hatch. So does her Dad.)

:D
Bah!

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