Occupy this

[dales]

I'm NOT envious of anyone's supposed wealth. dgs.

I'm angry about this:

dgs wrote:

There is no doubt that people on "Wall Street" and bankers have made "obscene" amounts of money without producing anything. More poignantly, many of them have made choices that have brought misery on millions of Americans - and been bailed out and rewarded for it. Surely, it is enough to piss a body off!

I would believe that anyone with an IQ above two digits would be too.

[Sue U]

Sue, I'm rather surprised at the points you are making.

Why? What have I said that is in any way surprising?

You want to talk about a cost-benefit analysis? Each of us chooses what to speed to drive on the highway, If we drove at 50mph, our chances of death or serious injury would be drastically reduced, as compared to the 75 that most of us use. Yet, we choose to accept a greater risk in exchange to reaching our destinations sooner. We also may choose to go for a ride in the country on a nice Fall day, knowing that we are greatly increasing the risk that we will die, when compared to sitting at home. We may choose to drive a small, economical car, rather than an SUV or a truck, knowing that in the event of an accident, we are much more likely to be killed in a Fiat 500 than in a base Ford F150, which doesn't cost all that much more, considering today's available discounts.

I ride a motorcycle, knowing that my chances of getting killed in an accident are 4 or 5 times greater than driving my MB. And the only justification is because I like to ride.

So what?

GM could easily make cars that are super-safe. They would be 5000 pounds and have a maximum speed of 40mph. But nobody would buy them.

That would be the "risk-utility" assessment I mentioned. We may be perfectly willing to accept an increased risk of injury and death from higher-speed lighter-weight vehicles because we find them more useful than slower, heavier ones. We could also make all cars capable of going in excess of 200 mph, and could eliminate speed restrictions on roadways, but we have chosen collectively that the associated risk is unacceptable.

"Progressives" like the President want to force the car manufacturers to make cars that will average 35 mpg, knowing that the road will ALWAYS be populated with commercial trucks and vans, and that MORE LIVES WILL INEVITABLY BE LOST in these high-mileage cars than if everyone were driving an SUV. Does that make them killers?

No, that makes them elected representatives enacting policy perceived to be in the overall public interest. If you think a different calculation should be made, elect someone else. But that's how we do it here.

Capitalism is neither moral nor immoral. Anyone can choose to be a capitalist (investor or business owner) and anyone can choose not to be. Regardless, whatever it is you are selling (goods, services, intelligence) is sold in a marketplace that determines its value based on demand and availability. I might be a PhD nuclear engineer who can't find a job, or a disgusting self-promoting slut (Lady Gaga) who can earn millions doing whatever the hell it is that she does. There is nothing moral about it.

Except for the pejoratives concerning Lady Gaga, I agree with you.

Socialism, on the other hand, requires confiscation of wealth from some individuals so that it can be given to others, and that is immoral on its face.

Any and every governmental system requires a system of taxation to provide public services and welfare programs. That is not "confiscation." More accurately, socialism (at least modern democratic socialism) provides for regulation of the economy through a democratic system for determining the allocation of resources and economic benefits.

And confiscating wealth is also an abridgement of freedom, because the victim's choices are limited by the lost wealth. Today's American Libs have the silly idea that mountains of wealth can be taken from those who have earned it and given to others, and that those whose wealth is confiscated will simply continue to generate that wealth and give it up. The history of the Income Tax in the U.S. is proof of the folly of this belief.

And that proof is what? That all the wealthy industrialists and entrepreneurs have been fleeing the U.S. since 1913 (or since any earlier iterations of an income tax)?

The top marginal tax rate has been as high as 90%, and yet the contribution of the top earners to the total income tax pool was less than it is now.

I don't know if that is true or not, and I don't have time to look it up now, but even if it is, so what? There are numerous factors besides the top marginal rate that affect revenue collected -- such as where that rate kicks in, the percentage of taxpayers earning the qualifying amount, other sources of revenue, etc.

There is no doubt that people on "Wall Street" and bankers have made "obscene" amounts of money without producing anything. More poignantly, many of them have made choices that have brought misery on millions of Americans - and been bailed out and rewarded for it. Surely, it is enough to piss a body off!

I think that's pretty much the point, right there.

But this is nothing new and nothing unique.

The idea is to change that.

We have many pockets of our economy and culture where people produce nothing and manage to make bazillions of dollars. Show business, sports, tort law, real estate development. Generally, however, our economy is not a zero-sum game. Just because one person makes a lot of money does not necessarily mean that someone else has to suffer unjustly. Who has been victimized by Bill Gates? Steve Jobs? Tiger Woods?

No one is saying that anyone has suffered unjustly because some people make a lot of money. All they are saying is that those reaping such great benefits from the system should pay to support it in a proportion more representative of the benefits obtained.

OWS is about envy; nothing more. That's their only connection to the Obama Administration.

This is simply your delusion.

[Gob]

Here is a list of companies we've confirmed are "Exporting America." These are U.S. companies either sending American jobs overseas, or choosing to employ cheap overseas labor, instead of American workers.

3Com
3M

A
Aalfs Manufacturing
Aavid Thermal Technologies
ABC-NACO
Accenture
Access Electronics
Accuride Corporation
Accuride International
Adaptec
ADC
Adobe Systems
Advanced Energy Industries
Aetna
Affiliated Computer Services
AFS Technologies
A.G. Edwards
Agere Systems
Agilent Technologies
AIG
Alamo Rent A Car
Albany International Corp.
Albertson's
Alcoa
Alcoa Fujikura
Allen Systems Group
Alliance Semiconductor
Allstate
Alpha Thought Global
Altria Group
Amazon.com
AMD
Americ Disc
American Dawn
American Express
American Greetings
American Household
American Management Systems
American Standard
American Uniform Company
AMETEK
AMI DODUCO
Amloid Corporation
Amphenol Corporation
Analog Devices
Anchor Glass Container
ANDA Networks
Anderson Electrical Products
Andrew Corporation
Anheuser-Busch
Angelica Corporation
Ansell Health Care
Ansell Protective Products
Anvil Knitwear
AOL
A.O. Smith
Apple
Applied Materials
Ark-Les Corporation
Arlee Home Fashions
Art Leather Manufacturing
Artex International
ArvinMeritor
Asco Power Technologies
Ashland
AstenJohnson
Asyst Technologies
Atchison Products, Inc.
A.T. Cross Company
AT&T
AT&T Wireless
A.T. Kearney
Augusta Sportswear
Authentic Fitness Corporation
Automatic Data Processing
Avanade
Avanex
Avaya
Avery Dennison
Azima Healthcare Services
Axiohm Transaction Solutions

B=z here

[Sue U]

I'm angry about this:

dgs wrote:

There is no doubt that people on "Wall Street" and bankers have made "obscene" amounts of money without producing anything. More poignantly, many of them have made choices that have brought misery on millions of Americans - and been bailed out and rewarded for it. Surely, it is enough to piss a body off!

I would believe that anyone with an IQ above two digits would be too.

There is no doubt that people on "Wall Street" and bankers have made "obscene" amounts of money without producing anything. More poignantly, many of them have made choices that have brought misery on millions of Americans - and been bailed out and rewarded for it. Surely, it is enough to piss a body off!

I think that's pretty much the point, right there.

Well, here's something everyone can agree on, apparently! So what's the problem?

[dales]

And now for a little humor...

[rubato]

And Sue, get your head into reality. As I said capitalism has done more to raise up people out of poverty and increase the standard of living than anything else in history.

Sure a few people do bad things in all areas of life. You exploit them.

Capitalism only became a benefit rather than a description of systematic exploitation when it was controlled by a liberal democratic government who imposed redistributive mechanisms on it; i.e. a mixed capitalist/socialist system.

Unregulated capitalism created the great depression and fascism/totalitarianism.

The major reason that we have fallen to the BOTTOM of the G-20 in most areas is that we have shifted the balance too far to the right. All of the countries which use a more redistributive system have higher quality of life.

yrs,
rubato

PS ... and it was empirical science and the decline of the power of the established church which made history progressive.

[Sue U]

Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen.

And as through your life you travel,
Yes, as through your life you roam,
You won't never see an outlaw
Drive a family from their home.

[BoSoxGal]

Brilliant, Sue!

[Lord Jim]

I'd like to have a few more details on the story about the homeless guy getting the 15 year sentence...

Like what kind of priors he had, for starters....

[Lord Jim]

There appears to be some question as to whether this "Roy Brown" story might be a complete fabrication:

Injustice in America or Clever Hoax?

This story about the homeless man who was sent to prison for 15 years after stealing $100 has been passed around thousands of times on the internet. Roy Brown, the homeless man, even has his own Facebook page. However, there is one little problem. If you try to find out the name of the sick judge, who sentenced Mr. Brown to 15 years for stealing the $100, or other details about the case you come up empty. So is the story true or is it a clever hoax?

Sample of blogs passing along the "injustice" against Roy Brown story:

Slope of Hope
The Angry Black Tumblr
Digital Journal
democratic underground
democratic undergound (2)

we saw that... blog:
shreveport man gets 15 years for stealing $100.00 --

apparently, still smarting from that whole "cut 'em loose carmouche" nonsense that was used against him in his recent unsuccessful bid for the fourth congressional district seat, caddo parish, la. district attorney, paul carmouche asked for and received an astounding fifteen year prison sentence for roy brown...

----
Please note that DA Paul Carmouche's Wikipedia page does not mention this case. So was this story originally fabricated to discredit Mr. Carmouche? Additionally, none of the online stories seems able to report the year and month the sentence was given to Mr. Brown. So there is no judge, no date, no relatives of Roy Brown speaking out about the injustice, no real "free Roy Brown" movement. Believe it or not, and apparently many people have believed this story without question.
----

2d Update: This story seems to have had a couple of surges of interest. One in 2009 and one recently in June 2011. Exactly the same verbatim write-up caused both surges. It's amazing that people will continue to discuss the issue of injustice regarding the case when it's pointed out to them that the case is probably bogus. Killing an internet myth is not easy.

If this story was 100% accurate don't you think 60 Minutes, or Dateline, or some other news show would have shown an interest in reporting on it? If you were a producer for one of these shows wouldn't you want to get Roy Brown on camera ASAP to tell his story to America. How do you spell Emmy?

Better yet, why hasn't Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton taken up the Roy Brown cause?

http://johnsville.blogspot.com/2011/06/ ... -hoax.html

So, no judges name, no comments from the prosecutor, no defense attorney name, no comments from him, (in fact no quotes from anyone of any kind) no court records cited....No article from a reputable local news source....

It's amazing how even intelligent folks are willing to swallow without question a yarn with so many red flags so long as it fits with their preconceived narrative....

[BoSoxGal]

My quick search indicates he had up to 8 prior offenses, all of the misdemeanor variety - DUI, failure to pay child support, domestic assault, possession marijuana, etc. These appear to be from 20 years prior to the crime.

He intimated he had a weapon, and robbed a bank - even if of only $100, it's an offense carrying a minimum penalty of 15 years. The judge gave him a break, probably, given his remorse - and only sentenced to the minimum.

And I bet you $20 he turned himself in on purpose, to get someplace where he'd have 'three hots and a cot', as my dad used to say.

He's locked up until 2022. On your dime, LJ. Feel safer?

I just see you've posted while I was writing; check Snopes (it's a true story) and the LA offender registry, which is online.

Then, eat some crow.

[Grim Reaper]

Here is the relevant article. Seems a few facts got left out on both sides.

[BoSoxGal]

Oops - I got the minimum wrong; 15 is the minimum in federal court for armed bank robbery, I believe.

So, the judge dinged him for priors.

[rubato]

One of the fraudsters got 30 years.

yrs,
rubato

[Liberty1]

Brilliant, Sue!

And this is Wall Streets fault how?

[dales]

Go back to sleep, lib.

[Liberty1]

If you don't like the punishment, do you blame the punishee or the punisher.

Don't think I'm the one sleepin.

[dales]

The evidence is overwhelming.

[Liberty1]

Yes, it is.

[dales]

At least OWS got dialogue going in America and I predict they will morph into a force to be reckoned with.

As long as they don't allow their message to be co-opted by either major party (unlike the tea baggers) they seem to me the only bright spot on the political horizon.

I was visiting with a good friend of mine (a 68-year old ex Viet-Nam vet) and he has nothing but praise for the OWS message. Both of us are disgusted with the current political shennanigans and look to OWS as a step in the right direction.

Time will tell.