Occupy this

[quaddriver]

the mother of all non-sequitors:

They're not going to magically start hiring people with fewer regulations. {therefore more regulation is the right way to go}

Is it possible to have someone sent to Gitmo for catastrophically not paying attention in school? (if in fact any school was ever attended)

[Lord Jim]

What do the protesters taking part in the demonstrations that have swept the US in recent days want?

The BBC profiles six of the very different characters who attended one of the rallies in Cleveland in the US state of Ohio.
Jacob Wagner, 25, law and business student

My family has gone through a lot this past decade. I've seen the effects of the corporate domination of government institutions at the expense of the working classes. Enough is enough.

We really need to even the economic playing field of elections. Right now, one vote is equal to another only in a tally. If you donate $1,000 to a politician's campaign and I donate a dollar, he's not going to listen to me, he's going to listen to you.

My parents and my brother all have a lot of health problems. They lost their health insurance because my dad lost his job. My family sometimes struggles to eat, pay the bills, pay the mortgage.

I know that other people are going through the same times. I know that a lot of people... think America is number one and it can't get any better than this. It can. Our public transportation is garbage. We're not moving towards clean energy - they're keeping us dependent on oil. That's why I want to help people become aware. I want to help people wake up and not be afraid to speak out against something that's wrong.

Greg Coleridge, 52

For a very long time I have been concerned about the growing political and constitutional rights of business corporations to not only influence and shape our economic policies but to govern, to be involved in decisions that affect our communities, and our families, and our environment.

It seems like that among the subset of business corporations that are the most powerful are the financial - the banks. They invest in political candidates. Look at what happened following the economic implosion of 2008: they got off scot-free. Still nobody's been indicted, and they got bailed out. The quote-unquote reforms that were passed were anaemic at best. This subset of corporations are so powerful that trying to work within the system is basically fruitless. You have to do an end-run and build a social movement, a political movement, a grassroots movement.

Many people of many stripes and many ages have increasingly come to believe that [Democrats or Republicans], it doesn't make too much difference. Changing parties, changing faces may not be sufficient. We need to change some basic defining structures. The voices of the people without money are not being heard.

Michelle Mahon, 40, union nurse

I've been a nurse for over 20 years - internal medicine is my speciality. We are seeing patients forgoing needed medical care, emergency room visits are up since this foreclosure crisis has begun, suicides attempts are increased. Real problems: stress, hypertension, blood pressure increases. Real problems, real people.

We're the largest professional association and union of registered nurses in the US, representing about 170,000 nurses. We are out here, we are in New York, we are in Boston, we are in San Francisco, we have been protesting Wall Street. It's no longer about pay, it's no longer about jobs, it's about everything. We heard their [Occupy Wall Street protesters'] message, and we were like 'wow, they heard our message'. It's the same. If you look at the root cause of a lot of the different problems in our country, we really are all saying the same thing. It's time to blame Wall Street and make them pay their fair share. It's time.

Rev Meredith White-Zeager, 38, Presbyterian minister

I'm a Christian and Jesus Christ, one of the things they said about him right when he was born was he will lift up the poor and tear the wealthy down from their thrones. Throughout the fullness of Judaeo-Christian history, God has been on the side of the poor and the needy. And in this country, where the comparison between a corporate exec's wage and worker's wage is - I think I just read - 425 to one, it seems like we've gotten out of balance.

The Bible has over 300 mentions of justice for people in poverty, for people struggling, and I think that the church needs to be down here making a statement that we support not only the people but the issues of economic justice. The Old Testament goes on and on about no usury and no exorbitant fees. [Paraphrasing Amos 2:6-8:] "The rich people, they sell the righteous for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals. In the house of their god they drink wine bought with fines they imposed", which seems to sum up why we're all here.

If the government or politicians would hear that there's a lot of us out here that are really the impinged and hurt, it might make a difference.

Justin Bilyj, 29, insurance broker, bartender and supporter of Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul

I just want to come here and make sure I can educate my fellow Americans of some of the root causes of the greater symptoms like the corruption. We don't have a free currency system - it's monopolised by the Federal Reserve system and it's unelected bankers that basically give all of our money to their buddies, inflate interest rates.

I'm here to speak my voice and remind them who's going to champion the constitution when it comes to federal election time - Ron Paul.

We're drawing awareness. I've talked to a lot of people who have opposing viewpoints. We're here because we're angry and we want the world to know this will not stand anymore. And whether we do it through a federal mandate or federal legislation or state legislation, we're going to do something about it.

Michael Parish, 52, disabled and retired Cleveland firefighter

The middle class of this country was built off of what has been demonised now as a 'public employee'. If it was not for public employees in those positions - teachers, firefighters, police officers, EMS workers - we would be in a Third-World country.

I fought fires, saved lives, protected property for 22 years. I had multiple injuries.

We don't ask for anything other than our fair share and our fair dues, and to be addressed in this manner from our so-called elected officials is a slap in the face.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15223695

Well, I confess that I haven't been following the development of this in Cleveland...

Most of what I've seen comes from New York, San Francisco or DC...

But I have to say there's something about those comments that just don't ring true...

I will assume for the sake of argument that the BBC reporter who compiled this actually got those comments...

But I have to wonder how he acquired them...

Those are clearly not "microphone- and-camera- in- the- face- man- in- the- street" comments...

They're too articulate, lengthy, and well thought out to be that sort of thing...

When someone is asked "why are you out here?" they don't spontaneously respond with those sort of multi-paragraph polemics...

Nobody does that...

So how did he get those responses?

Did he go to the demonstration and ask a bunch of people to write out their motivations in essay form? And then publish the ones that were the best well written? That's certainly what it looks like...

Did he then cherry pick those that would seem to give a "broad" view of the folks there, rather than a representative sampling?

As I've said, there are some legitimate grievances here...

But that article just doesn't smell right...

[quaddriver]

Plagarism?

Score one for LJ

[Lord Jim]

Sounds like a bunch of pot smoking hippies . . . yeah.

the demonstration, punctuated by drums and tambourines playing,

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index ... eland.html



Yeah, The Socialist Party USA...

That'll go over big....

Hippie wannabes...



And Hippie usedtobes...



There's a lot of legitimate anger over the way things have been going in this country...

And hard economic times always breeds resentment....

But there's no way in hell that the average American is going to identify with this lot....

[Liberty1]

[Lord Jim]

The thing that really gets me about the ninny with the "Socialist Party" sign is this...

He's ADVERTISING the fact, that the taxpayers are on the hook to the tune of 25K for his education....

And he's BITCHING about it....

(Well, one thing we can say for a fact is that in his case at least, we taxpayers certainly didn't get our money's worth....)

Not exactly the sort of suffering that the heroic Syrians are confronting in their "Arab Spring"...

[BoSoxGal]

How are the taxpayers on the hook for his education, LJ? HE holds the $25k in student loans, and given the state of student loan law in the US - and bankruptcy law - those federal student loans will hound him unto death, even garnishing SS disability or retirement benefits.

Your earlier comment with regard to the profiles of protesters struck me as very arrogant/elitist. The ages/educations of the individuals profiled squares with the content, in my opinion. I've been politically involved in the past, including 'hippie' protests - once at the federal building in Bangor, Maine, to protest economic injustice in the form of tax cuts for the very wealthy. I have a real sense of the sort of people involved here, as I'm fairly certain they're quite like the ones I was politically active with. There are MANY articulate, educated people in these movements - from college age to retirement age. They CAN articulate the root issues they see as causing economic injustice in our society, with some degree of complexity.

You really seem to suggest that all the folks taking to the streets in this movement are lazy, stupid college kids. There might be some, but most of those kids are probably in the dorm room playing Wii and drinking beer. I think you really underestimate.

And when media does an article like the one quoted- 'profiles' on protesters - they aren't verbatim soundbites. They sit down and interview someone and then compile/edit to present the profile. They probably fix the grammar a bit, too. How do I know this? I've been the subject of such a piece more than once in my life, both in my professional endeavors and in my past political activism. That being said, again, nothing in those profiles - including the language articulating the individual's personal experiences and understanding of economic injustice - rings 'untrue' to me.

I guess this shows the great divide in American politics.

[Lord Jim]

The ages/educations of the individuals profiled squares with the content, in my opinion.

Oh come on, BSG....

You honestly believe that those multi-paragraph grammatically perfect statements represent spontaneous off the cuff comments?

William F. Buckley, on his most erudite day, wouldn't have been that lucid and literate giving an on the spot response to a reporter's question....

Whether they reflect genuine sentiments or not, you have to admit there's a set up there....

[BoSoxGal]

Your reading comprehension is a bit off today, LJ. I addressed the issue you brought up about spontaneous, off-the-cuff quotes.

But, let me re-address it. Again, from my experience and in my opinion, many of the people who take time out of their busy lives to engage in these protests ARE educated and articulate about the issues. They didn't just decide willy-nilly to show up when they heard about it through the grapevine. They've been organizing locally and talking about these issues amongst themselves and online for some time.

So yes, when a reporter approaches and asks to interview them, they have a story and an opinion/position ready to articulate.

If you truly think differently, then again, my opinion is that you have a somewhat arrogant and quite limited perspective.

But then again, when was the last time you participated in a political rally?

[BoSoxGal]

William F. Buckley, on his most erudite day, wouldn't have been that lucid and literate giving an on the spot response to a reporter's question....

I missed this bit in my first response, but must comment.

You can't have idolized Buckley (as a master of the English language) nearly as much as I did to make such a comment.

Buckley on his least erudite day could be more articulate than those statements, on any subject about which he had a reasonable understanding.

[Lord Jim]

Okay BSG, so you believe that when the average person has a microphone stuck in his/her face at a political demonstration, and is asked the question, "why are you here?" they respond with a four paragraph, grammatically perfect biography and political statement...

And you believe it's "arrogant" and/or "elitist" to think otherwise....

As you lawyers like to say, is that your testimony?

[Lord Jim]

Buckley on his least erudite day could be more articulate than those statements, on any subject about which he had a reasonable understanding.

Absolutely...

If he gave it some thought....which he undoubtedly would have...

But with a microphone shoved in his face at a demonstration, I suspect that Bill would have said something along the lines of, "If you back off I'll answer your question, but get your fucking microphone out of my face"...."

Buckley was that kinda guy....

[quaddriver]

If anyone would follow the link, I linked in the story from cleveland itself, in which the first person named gave his off the cuff comment. It was way shorter, fragmented and disorganized vs. the one from the bbc. There IS a difference.

[Lord Jim]

Your earlier comment with regard to the profiles of protesters struck me as very arrogant/elitist.

I have to tell you BSG, that really hands me a laugh....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you one of the folks around here who have suggested that most people who vote Republican do so because they are too ignorant to figure out what is in their own best interest?

Can there be anything more "arrogant/elitist" than presuming to know better what is in a person's "best interest" than the poor misguided member of the hoi polloi can work out for himself?

[dales]

Butting in here:

What's happening with the "Occupy Whatever" is more than a rep/dem issue.

Those that frame it as such do so at their own peril.

[Grim Reaper]

Is it possible to have someone sent to Gitmo for catastrophically not paying attention in school? (if in fact any school was ever attended)

Holy shit quad, what the fuck is wrong with your brain that you would think that adding text to a person's quote would qualify them for gitmo?

Here's a thought. Go sit in a corner until you can join rational discussion again.

Also, there's a third option between fewer regulations and more regulations, it's called "not changing the regulations" you gigantic fuckwit.

[BoSoxGal]

I agree that the Occupy Wall Street movement isn't partisan.

And LJ, I guess we just have to really disagree on this issue. As I said, I've been one of those in the midst of protest who was interviewed and profiled in the press. There isn't anything in the BBC piece that rings untrue to me.

And FWIW, as a former English teacher, I don't 'get' your claims that those profiles are so very sophisticated or highly articulate. Again, given the education/experience level of the persons profiled (a law student, a nurse, a minister, two long-time civil servants), and a reasonable expectation that they have informed themselves on the issue(s) they are taking the time to protest about, the statements made seem very credible to me.

It's interesting to me that you so consistently scoffed at Steve's liberal 'conspiracy theorizing,' and yet are so quick to jump to the conclusion that the BBC is falsifying information in this case.

You aren't the only conservative responding to OWS this way.

Seems conservative, free-market capitalists are a bit unnerved that real, hard-working, 'normal' Americans are out there protesting the way the deregulated financial system has robbed us all of the American dream.

[Sue U]

Oh look, Fux News interviewing a random inarticulate thoughtless unfocussed demonstrator who has no idea why he's there:



Why do you suppose this never aired?

[Lord Jim]

It's interesting to me that you so consistently scoffed at Steve's liberal 'conspiracy theorizing,' and yet are so quick to jump to the conclusion that the BBC is falsifying information in this case.

Well, first of all that's a false comparison, because if the reporter did that it wouldn't be a "conspiracy"....

Merely a single person behaving unethically....not at all the same thing.

But that's not what I believe happened here anyway. I don't think that the reporter "made up" this stuff, (though he may very well have edited it significantly) I don't think he invented these people and created these stories...

What I believe he did was go through a crowd, and deliberately ignore the tattooed, body pierced, soap and water averse tambourine bangers, (which probably, even in Cleveland constituted the greater portion of the crowd) in order to find the most normal looking people he could, and then he cherry picked from that the most literate responses he could find; giving an overall false impression about the complexion of the participants...

(BTW, I'm no stranger to protest marches...I've seen a lot of them up close and personal, having spent the first half of my life in DC, and the second half in San Francisco...I am well acquainted with what sorts of folks they attract...)

And oh yes, to answer your question about when was the last time I was a participant, (as opposed to a spectator) at a protest rally, it was back in the late 90's (at the height of the Lewinsky scandal) near a fund raiser Bill Clinton had at the home of wealthy Democratic contributor in San Francisco...

I carried a sign that read "RESIGN PERJURER "

[Long Run]

I carried a sign that read "RESIGN PERJURER "

He obliged, but just misread your placard, thought it said "re-sign", and thought, "Silly man, I am term limited."