Devil and the deep blue sea

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Guinevere
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by Guinevere »

1. There is no official finding from the NFL, still only rumor and innuendo.
2. Were the Colts balls tested? If this is a fair analysis, they should be.
3. Who has control over the balls? The referees, not the teams.
4. There is no evidence that anyone saw any balls being tampered with.

And then there is this -- evidence of a real double standard. The only conspiracy at play here is of the poor whinging losers, doing everything they can to smear the Pats. Get over it.

http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/2015/0 ... moking-gun

From the transcript (you can listen to it yourself in the link above):
Nantz: We talked to Rodgers about ‘How do you like your football?’ because you know, you can rub them up before the game, this is something you really kind of created this for everyone else in the league.
Simms: I don’t know if I did, because the quarterbacks got tired of complaining. But he said something that was unique. ‘I like to push the limits to how much air we can put in the football – even go over what they allow you to do. See if the officials take air out of it,’ because he thinks its easier for him to grip, he likes them tight of course he has very big hands and you can tell that by watching him play.
- Play call -
Nantz: …You’ve never heard of a guy really desiring the football to be fat and overinflated, correct?
Simms: Everybody wants it smaller and soft so they can dig their fingers into it. (More on Rodgers’ hands)
Nantz talks more about Rodgers’ hands
Simms: You know, the officials do check those footballs, and sometimes you can get lucky and put an extra half a pound of air in there to help Aaron Rodgers out.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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Crackpot
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by Crackpot »

And who's been playing with these balls? Have they even been given a gentle squeeze?
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

From what I read, 11 of the 12 balls supplied be NE were underinflated. No news on what the actual psi of those balls was.
Balls are supposed to be inflated to between 12.5 to 13.5psi.
Each team supplies their own balls for when they are on offense and are given to league officials 2 hours before the game.

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TPFKA@W
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by TPFKA@W »

That's what I read oldr. So I guess it was all just a massive oversight not cheating.

ETA: I am on my phone or would copy article on the science behind it I read.

Of course our team has another member charged with rape.

The NFL is filled with such upstanding gentlemen.

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Guinevere
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by Guinevere »

We don't know what it is, or who is responsible. Look, I hate cheating, I hate cheaters, but I also hate the rush to judgment against the Pats, and the uneven application of the rules. That's equally as bad (and I'd say so if it wasn't the Pats, too).

I'm also unclear as to what the rule says about when the balls are measured, and what happens if they are measured after they are used in a game because we all know that things that are inflated do deflate after use. Anyone who has ever owned a bicycle or a basketball or a football or a tire knows that simple fact.

Ultimately, who is going to be the most pissed if there was some funny business going on --- Pats fans. We have the most to lose here. Certainly, none of this shit was necessary to steamroll over the Colts.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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Lord Jim
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by Lord Jim »

. Who has control over the balls? The referees, not the teams.
Well, yes and no...

The highlighted portions of this article detail the procedures that were followed. Apparently contrary to what people have assumed, (myself included) the teams don't both play offense with the same balls. They play offense with the balls they provide, so if a team is deflating the balls after they've been checked prior to the game, they definitely do get an unfair advantage:
11 of 12 Pats footballs underinflated

The NFL has found that 11 of the New England Patriots' 12 game balls were inflated significantly below the NFL's requirements, league sources involved and familiar with the investigation of Sunday's AFC Championship Game told ESPN.

The investigation found the footballs were inflated 2 pounds per square inch below what's required by NFL regulations during the Pats' 45-7 victory over the Indianapolis Colts, according to sources.

"We are not commenting at this time," said Greg Aiello, the NFL's senior vice president of communications.

League sources have confirmed that the footballs were properly inspected and approved by referee Walt Anderson 2 hours and 15 minutes before kickoff, before they were returned to each team.

Under NFL rules, no alteration of the footballs is allowed once they are approved.

Troy Vincent, the league's senior executive vice president of football operations, told The Associated Press late Tuesday in response to this report that the "investigation is currently underway, and we're still awaiting findings." He told "Pro Football Talk with Mike Florio on NBC Sports Radio" earlier Tuesday that the NFL expected to wrap up its investigation in "two or three days."

Sources told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter on Wednesday that the Colts had concerns about underinflated balls after their regular-season game against the visiting Patriots on Nov. 16.

During that game, Colts safety Mike Adams twice intercepted Tom Brady and gave the balls to the Colts' equipment manager to save -- and both times there were concerns about the balls feeling underinflated, sources told Schefter.

Those sources said the Colts raised concerns to the league, which was aware of the issue going into this weekend's AFC title game.

Yet to be determined is what, if any, penalties may be imposed upon the Patriots. One source described the league as "disappointed ... angry ... distraught" after spending considerable time on the findings earlier Tuesday.

Part of the investigation that needs further vetting is how the 11 footballs became underinflated.

The game balls that each team received for preparation were required to be inspected and marked with a dot -- signifying that they passed inspection -- by referee Walt Anderson two hours and 15 minutes before kickoff, then returned to a ball attendant.

The balls are required to be inflated between 12.5 and 13.5 pounds per square inch and weigh between 14 and 15 ounces. No alteration of footballs is allowed once they are approved, under league rules and regulations.

The balls are then put into ball bags and are set on the sideline for each team. The ball bags are not guarded or watched in any way. When an official calls for a new football, a team's designated ball boy will get a new football from the ball bag and give it to the official.


"We have been in complete cooperation with the league and will continue to do so," Patriots spokesman Stacey James said.

The NFL began looking into the issue because doctoring the footballs could provide a competitive advantage, compromising the integrity of the game.

Deflating a football can change the way it's gripped by a player or the way it travels through the air. Under NFL rules, each team provides balls each game for use when its offense is on the field. The balls are inspected before the game by the officiating crew, then handled during the game by home-team personnel.

http://espn.go.com/boston/story/_/id/12 ... nship-game
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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Well that's a blow! Takes a bit of the wind out of the Pats' sails. New England Pufftriots? New coach will be Ball Bettercheck? To unair is human?

(cont p 94)
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Lord Jim
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by Lord Jim »

Unless it turns out that the NFL sources that ESPN and The Boston Globe relied on for their stories were lying to them, at this point it seems pretty cut and dry to me:

1. The balls were checked for proper inflation by the refs prior to kickoff, and all the footballs provided by both teams met the league requirements for inflation.

2. 11 out of 12 of the Patriots footballs, (which were used only by the Patriots offense) have since been found to be under inflated by two pounds. (Giving them a significant offensive advantage)

3. The Patriots, (not the refs) had possession and oversight of those balls from the time they were checked for proper inflation till the Patriots had them put in play for use by their offense.


Given that set of facts, you don't have to be Columbo or Rumpole Of The Bailey to figure out that somebody within the Patriots organization did, with malice aforethought, deliberately deflate those balls for the purpose of giving the Patriots an unfair advantage...

They're the only ones who had motive, means, and opportunity....

The question that the NFL continues to "investigate" is how far up the food chain the decision to do this went...(In any other year, I'm sure that Goodell would have tried to just sweep it under the rug, but he's on the griddle for so many things at the moment, he probably has no choice but to just let the investigation go forward...)

Personally, I have a hard time believing that the team ball boy would have taken it upon himself to make the decision to deflate 11 footballs during the NFC Championship Game...

If this had been a close game, this could easily have blown up into the biggest scandal in the history of the NFL...(the biggest on-field scandal, anyway)

Imagine if the Patriots had won the game on a last second long pass completion with one of these cheater balls, and then this came to light...

There would have been a huge hue and cry from the public, (the public outside of Boston anyway) to have the Patriots disqualified from playing in the Super Bowl....

Though the NFL rules permit nothing like that in a case like this...a $25,000 fine against the team (which would be like fining me 25 cents) and the loss of their top draft pick (which is a meaningful penalty) is the maximum allowed...

If the investigation trail leads ultimately to Belichick, (especially given his track record from 2007), he should be fired and banned permanently from the NFL...

I really didn't much care who wins this Super Bowl...

(In fact I was leaning slightly towards the Patriots, since the Seahawks are the perennial division nemesis of my second team, The 49ers...)

But now, in light of this obvious cheating, I say:

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Last edited by Lord Jim on Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:22 am, edited 4 times in total.
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BoSoxGal
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by BoSoxGal »

Colts’ Dwayne Allen: Patriots Could’ve ‘Played With Soap For Balls And Beat Us’ by Anna Fogel on Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 11:50AM

DeflateGate is a non-issue according to the majority of people and at least one Indianapolis Colts player. The Twittersphere was buzzing after an ESPN report came out Tuesday night that said 11 of the 12 game balls the New England Patriots used in the AFC Championship Game against the Colts were under-inflated.

The blistering hot takes, like one columnist calling for Bill Belichick to be fired, almost melted Twitter, and a couple of Indy players even threw in a couple jokes of their own. Both punter Pat McAfee and cornerback Darius Butler made light of the situation, but their teammate Dwayne Allen had a more serious take. The tight end said the 45-7 beatdown happened because the Pats were the better team, not because some footballs might not have been inflated properly. So, that’s enough to put the deflated football controversy to rest, right? Hey, we tried.

Not to mention officials allegedly removed the under-inflated footballs at halftime when the Pats led 17-7. Tom Brady and Co. then torched the Colts for 21 points in the third quarter en route to their dominating win.

Read more at: http://nesn.com/2015/01/colts-dwayne-al ... d-beat-us/
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by Lord Jim »

Just because you would probably have won the game anyway without cheating doesn't mean you get a pass for the cheating...

Just ask Dick Nixon... 8-)
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TPFKA@W
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by TPFKA@W »

Lord Jim wrote:Just because you would probably have won the game anyway without cheating doesn't mean you get a pass for the cheating...

Just ask Dick Nixon... 8-)
I have a feeling they would have beaten them anyway but is that supposed to give them a pass?

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

No, just a completion
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

Big RR
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by Big RR »

Lord Jim wrote:Just because you would probably have won the game anyway without cheating doesn't mean you get a pass for the cheating...

Just ask Dick Nixon... 8-)
then again, it worked for W. :lol:

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TPFKA@W
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by TPFKA@W »

Ah, I didn't know it was a habitual thing for them to cheat.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3018338

What a bunch of dicks. And I don't just mean the Patriots.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by Lord Jim »

I saw Belichick's press conference this morning, and I found it interesting in several ways...

First of all, the guy looked like he'd rather be sitting in a dentist's chair...(which I understand is not unusual for Belichick; he's not a great fan of meeting with the press, even on a good day)

He started out by talking about something completely irrelevant to the case at hand, with what appeared to me to be the obvious intent of muddying the waters...

He said that he had been told that the team always inflated the balls to a pressure at the lower end of the allowable range, and that normal play deflated the balls by a few ounces, so that in the future they would inflate the balls to a greater pressure to avoid falling below the allowable level unintentionally...

This is completely irrelevant of course, because we're not talking about "few ounces"; we're talking about eleven balls being found to be under the permissible pressure by two pounds...

Belichick didn't try to make this the excuse for what happened, he just tossed it out for no apparent reason...

What Belickick said, (over and over, no matter what question was asked) was that he had no idea how the balls came to be so deflated, and that the league was investigating it and that he was cooperating with their investigation...

What this said to me was that he really has no interest in finding out how it happened since he wasn't even bothering to ask his team and staff about it himself. He's doing the absolute bare minimum he feels he has to.

But while he was obviously trying to say as little as possible, it seemed to me that he still unnecessarily went out on a limb...

He was absolutely emphatic on one point; that he knew absolutely nothing at all about the the ball inflation rules or procedures, had never talked with anybody about them . He even went so far as to say that that he had no idea what the whole process and procedure about how the balls got put on the field for play; he claimed it was not something he had ever even given any thought to.

Aside from how wildly implausible this claim is on it's face for a coach known for being completely hands on to the point of being border line obsessive over every detail that goes into his team's on field performance, it seems to me he has needlessly left himself wide open to a big problem...

Making that categorical claim, all it's going to take is a reporter finding one former player or staff member saying, "that's not true ; I talked to Bill about this and he knew all about what was involved with the balls" to make him look guilty as hell, even if he wasn't the one behind this.
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oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

He even went so far as to say that that he had no idea what the whole process and procedure about how the balls got put on the field for play; he claimed it was not something he had ever even given any thought to.
Yeah right. :shrug
This comes from a guy who has shown he knows the rule book inside and out and insists on his players knowing the rule book to the point of pop-questions to his players about the rules.

Is he throwing Brady under the bus?
Wonder if his thought process is , the league might ban me from the SB (and two weeks of pregame prep) but they would not dare ban TB, so lets go with Brady did it or instructed someone to do it.

I also heard that up until a year or two ago (maybe three) the home team supplied the balls for the game and each team used the balls from the same ball pool. Then the competition committee was lobby'd to let each team supply thier own balls and they changed the rule. Guess who did the lobbying? Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.
Food for thought.
:mrgreen:

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Lord Jim
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by Lord Jim »

Is he throwing Brady under the bus?
I picked up on that too...

Brady, who laughed dismissively about this on Monday is expected to hold a press conference momentarily...
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Guinevere
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by Guinevere »

Tommy - five minutes ago: "I didn't alter the balls in any way." "We won the game fair and square."
Amen. Now will all you sore losers and haters get the fuck over it.

PS-none of the "facts" in the various posts above have yet been verified by the league. It's still nothing more than rumor and innuendo until the report comes out.

PPS - no one in the NFL has yet to speak w Tom. He chose 24 balls for the game, not 12.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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Gob
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by Gob »

Ball tampering is rife in sport...


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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Devil and the deep blue sea

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Lock, stock and two Smokin' Balls!


no one in the NFL has yet to speak w Tom.
Lord, his ears must be aching... :roll:
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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