Do not go gentle

[TPFKA@W]

If I became "incapable"...

A pathetic hulk of a man, (yeah, I'm sure there are some around here who think I already meet that criteria ) a burden to my loved ones, staying alive by sucking tapioca through a straw and staring into space; I'd eat my gun....

But it would be unthinkable for me to take myself away from my family, (especially my children) before that happened...just because I didn't want to get older...

Well the solution for you then is very simple, don't do the assisted suicide thing. But keep your freaking nose out of the business of those who want the alternative. It ain't rocket surgery.

[Big RR]

Jim--Of course, at the point you degenerated to the level you say, you'd probably be incapable of retrieving your gun, holding it, or firing it. So you probably could not undergo any sort of self directed exit at that point. Add to that the mess you'd leave your family to view and clean up, and it's a no win situation.

Instead, you could elect to off yourself while on the road to that inevitable conclusion of degeneration, but then that's what this woman looked like she was trying to do--to spare herself and her family the anguish of her (rightly or wrongly) inevitable demise. It is something she chose not to face, and she chose to act while she felt she still could.

Now if England had rational laws that would have permitted her this option later when she might not have been able to travel or prove she was choosing this option in a right mind, she may have been able to defer the decision for a while, but that was not the case (the same is true in the US).

But ultimately it comes down to who's choice it should be, and I come down squarely on the side of the individual involved. You or I probably would not have made the same choice faced with the same circumstances, but absent any mental defect it should be her choice.

I know I've mentioned this before, but my mother died quite young, 65. She was a geriatric nurse her entire life and always said she would never want to wind up in a nursing home. When she had her (massive) stroke, I stood firm against the ER doctors pressuring me to let them perform certain measures to save her life--measure she had told me she would never want. She died in a few hours. It wasn't easy to stand by and do nothing, but I thought how much worse it would be if she didn't pass away and was put into the situation she did not want. Indeed, to me there was no choice but to honor her wishes.

Which is why I am a strong supporter of self determination and assisted suicide. For people who feel that way, it is a final act of their own will; if my mother had not died from the stroke, I am certain that is a path she would have eventually choses My mother's decision is one which many others may not embrace, but it was hers; and allowing her the dignity of respecting her final wishes is the least I could do for her. We have to say goodbye sometime.

[Econoline]

The bottom line for me is that what I choose to do with my life is nobody's damned business but mine as long as it is not directly causing you physical harm.

Oh, don't worry; in your case I wouldn't think of interfering...

[TPFKA@W]

The bottom line for me is that what I choose to do with my life is nobody's damned business but mine as long as it is not directly causing you physical harm.

Oh, don't worry; in your case I wouldn't think of interfering...

I love you too.

[oldr_n_wsr]

The rooms of AA are littered with people who tried to commit suicide but either failed or were prevented from doing so either by persuasion or physically. To a person they are over joyed that there attempt was not realized.
myself included in that group
Those that were prevented (or have the emts called on to be saved), should they have been allowed to die?

Believe me the pain is that unbearable.

[TPFKA@W]

The rooms of AA are littered with people who tried to commit suicide but either failed or were prevented from doing so either by persuasion or physically. To a person they are over joyed that there attempt was not realized.
myself included in that group
Those that were prevented (or have the emts called on to be saved), should they have been allowed to die?

Believe me the pain is that unbearable.

Boozed up sots aside, there is no reason why a rational, sober person who has put a great deal of thought into it should be prevented from deciding when to end it.

[Lord Jim]

Jim--Of course, at the point you degenerated to the level you say, you'd probably be incapable of retrieving your gun, holding it, or firing it. So you probably could not undergo any sort of self directed exit at that point. Add to that the mess you'd leave your family to view and clean up, and it's a no win situation.

Yes , that would be the terrible part of it....

The Jackson Pollock number I would do with my brain matter on the wall; that would be a terrible mess...

My mother went through a lot trying to survive cancer, (chemo etc.) and she rallied several times and got a few extra years...

But when she was told she'd have to undergo radical surgery to get a few more months she decided to pass on that...

I wasn't happy about her decision, but I understood it....

In my case I've got two kids still to put through college...

Death is not an option; it's not on the table...

Simply unacceptable; I don't have the time for it...too much left to do...

If other folks want to die, I certainly wouldn't interfere with their "life choices"...

But as for me, it's right out; it's just not on....

I really don't see the benefit....

[Big RR]

In my case I've got two kids still to put through college...

Death is not an option; it's not on the table...

Sure, but what if your "living" in a reduced capacity threatened to wipe out whatever college funds you have for them and you had no way of replenishing the funds?

For the most part we're not talking about dying while in our prime with many more good years ahead.

[Lord Jim]

I admit that I have a very hard time dealing with the whole concept of "death" (I know this is not a rational view, but I believe that if you ignore it, you can avoid it longer...)

It took a lot to get me to even sign off on a Will ("What do we need a 'wills' for? If I snuff it before you, you and the kids get everything we have, and if you snuff it before me same thing...we don't need 'wills'")

Finally I said, "okay have it written up and I'll sign it, but I'm not even going to read it..."

And that's exactly what I did....

My mother-in-law has the same attitude, and she's 76... (She's in great physical shape, exercises all the time, still has her driver's license....it was tough to get her to sign off on a "will"...)

I really don't believe that thinking about death is good for your health...

So I tend to avoid it....

[TPFKA@W]

I admit that I have a very hard time dealing with the whole concept of "death" (I know this is not a rational view, but I believe that if you ignore it, you can avoid it longer...)

It took a lot to get me to even sign off on a Will ("What do we need a 'wills' for? If I snuff it before you, you and the kids get everything we have, and if you snuff it before me same thing...we don't need 'wills'")

Finally I said, "okay have it written up and I'll sign it, but I'm not even going to read it..."

And that's exactly what I did....

My mother-in-law has the same attitude, and she's 76... (She's in great physical shape, exercises all the time, still has her driver's license....it was tough to get her to sign off on a "will"...)

I really don't believe that thinking about death is good for your health...

So I tend to avoid it....

I find this to be a common theme among those who have gotten a whiff of brimstone. Have you done something unforgivably naughty Jim? I am thinking you said you were Catholic and I thought they all have Get out of hell free cards.

[Lord Jim]

I find this to be a common theme among those who have gotten a whiff of brimstone. Have you done something unforgivably naughty Jim?

Oh, I've done number of "naughty" things over the course of my life, but none that I think would qualify as "unforgivable"...

My desire not to dwell depressingly on my own mortality is not based on some fear of burning in eternal hellfire....

It's based on what I consider to be a rather sensible view; that death is best avoided and holds no appeal....

And that there's absolutely no value to be gained, (for me personally, others may feel differently) in dwelling on it....

ETA:

I am thinking you said you were Catholic and I thought they all have Get out of hell free cards.

No, we don't get "get out of hell free" cards...

Quite the contrary....

We get a lifelong portion of guilt that no matter how far you stray from The Church, sooner or later it always pulls you back....

[TPFKA@W]

I suppose because there have been 3 deaths this week I think about it a fair amount. Tomorrow I am going to DL's graveside services because she was 93 and had no family at all, just a court ordered guardian. I was afraid no one else would show up. I am taking a can of coke to put at her headstone, that old lady loved her coca-cola. She would drink it till it started fizzing out her nose. When she started having thickened liquids she couldn't have coke any longer, because it is not possible to mix carbonation and thickener in any way that leads to anything other than a really messy volcano, it was hard redirecting her to drink thickened apple juice instead. Old age does that you know, it is a thief that steals one thing after another from you. When you can no longer do any of the things you loved, and on top of it you have enough pain every day that you are miserable you will welcome death when it comes. You were dead once before you were alive and it was not so bad was it?

[wesw]

good post above.

[Lord Jim]

Old age does that you know, it is a thief that steals one thing after another from you. When you can no longer do any of the things you loved, and on top of it you have enough pain every day that you are miserable you will welcome death when it comes. You were dead once before you were alive and it was not so bad was it?

Geezus, to me that is a really depressing (almost nihilistic) perspective...

@W, it seems to me that you are surrounded by so many end of life situations, (understandably in your profession, I have a lot of respect for you; I could not do what you do) that your world view has been colored and defined by this experience....

I'm certainly no "everything is rosy" type Pollyanna, (I've been known to have my cynical moments... ) but that having been said, there is a "less bleak" interpretation of life and its meaning, then the one you suggest....

If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be able to get out of bed in the morning....

[Joe Guy]

and that's @W in a good mood....

[wesw]

pretty much exactly how I felt a few years ago when I was at my worst physically and mentally.

i was totally wrong of course.....

[Lord Jim]

There's a line from The Man Of La Mancha, where Dulcinea says "the world is a dung heap, and we are maggots that crawl upon it"...

A solid case can be made for that point of view, but personally, I do not choose to interpret reality in that negative a light....

[TPFKA@W]

Old age does that you know, it is a thief that steals one thing after another from you. When you can no longer do any of the things you loved, and on top of it you have enough pain every day that you are miserable you will welcome death when it comes. You were dead once before you were alive and it was not so bad was it?

Geezus, to me that is a really depressing (almost nihilistic) perspective...

@W, it seems to me that you are surrounded by so many end of life situations, (understandably in your profession, I have a lot of respect for you; I could not do what you do) that your world view has been colored and defined by this experience....

I'm certainly no "everything is rosy" type Pollyanna, (I've been known to have my cynical moments... ) but that having been said, there is a "less bleak" interpretation of life and its meaning, then the one you suggest....

If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be able to get out of bed in the morning....

Nonsense Jim, death does not depress me. What is depressing is seeing people who cry and pray for death because they are so miserable from chronic pain or other issues. I have heard many an old person beg for death to come. Once death visits the ailing all the pain is gone, the body is finally quiet and at peace. I have stood over people who are clearly dying, waiting to draw blood, hearing them cry out as the needle pierces their skin yet again to determine what other treatment they will get before dying anyway. You stand there wondering why in the hell you have been told to do this again, what is the point and silently mumbling a promise to yourself that you will not allow it to come to this point with you. We treat our pets with more compassion and that, not death, is what is depressing.

[Lord Jim]

@W, it seems to me that you are surrounded by so many end of life situations, (understandably in your profession, I have a lot of respect for you; I could not do what you do) that your world view has been colored and defined by this experience....

What is depressing is seeing people who cry and pray for death because they are so miserable from chronic pain or other issues. I have heard many an old person beg for death to come.

That rather proves my point...

[Crackpot]

Unfortunately episodes like @w describe are becoming more the rule than the exception.