Pro Choice Parents

[loCAtek]

The problem I have with assigning gender roles is the assignment of male as dominant over the female role; they are not equal positions by any stretch.
A girl child is conditioned, under the guise of teaching her how her gender behaves; to believe that her job is to please men. She's to be sweet, pacifist, and to desire dependance on a male figure like a husband or father. Take how in most societies, the "Most Important Day of a Girl's life" is her Wedding Day; it's the most massive celebration she'll receive ... for achieving bondage to a mate. The epitome of that subservient role is her losing her family name to her husband's.

The male role is to be independent, self-sufficient.

The female role is be dependent, self-effacing.


The degree of male dominance has lessened over history, but it still exists and it's still being taught. Look at all that 'Princess' crap being sold to girls, compared to the 'Action Figures' sold to boys.

Anecdote: A few years, up at Travis AFB while visiting the Air Force Museum I witnessed a Grandfather conditioning his granddaughter and grandson in gender roles this way;

The museum had some cute kid's clothes as souvenirs, and the finest was the child-sized leather bomber jackets. Grandpa had taken one off the rack, and was trying to push it on his grandson saying, "Don't you want this? You want it don't you? Just try it on" Sonny, wasn't interested in it all, but no matter how much he shook his head or said no, Grandpa kept pushing. Meanwhile, the granddaughter was very interested, "I do! I do!" she kept repeating and holding out her hands. This was ignored by grandpa, and he left her to be pulled back by mother from the 'power symbol' jacket.

[dales]

Grandpa was an idiot.

[rubato]

"...
Women who are not homosexual will act like women; so, homosexual women act like . . . ?

... "

Heterosexual men but with far worse aesthetic senses.

The Aesthetic hierarchy is:

Homosexual Men
Heterosexual Women
Heterosexual Men
.. (big gap)
.. (huge gap)
Homosexual Women

yrs,
rubato

[Joe Guy]

The problem I have with assigning gender roles is the assignment of male as dominant over the female role; they are not equal positions by any stretch.

I agree.

A girl child is conditioned, under the guise of teaching her how her gender behaves; to believe that her job is to please men. She's to be sweet, pacifist, and to desire dependance on a male figure like a husband or father.

That's not how I see it. At least not here in the U.S.A.

Women in this country are the ones who are most involved in raising the family. A man is expected to have a career and work to earn enough money to keep the family fed, have medical care, schooled and - nowadays - well supplied with cell phones and video games.

Even though women are nowadays much more likely to have working careers than in the past they are still best at the role of raising the children and keeping a family intact.

Take how in most societies, the "Most Important Day of a Girl's life" is her Wedding Day; it's the most massive celebration she'll receive ... for achieving bondage to a mate. The epitome of that subservient role is her losing her family name to her husband's.

That's a Hollywood invention.

The truth is that a mother is the heart, soul & strength of a family. Nowadays, in the U.S. the man's role is to go out and make enough money to allow our family to thrive. The problem is that men in many cases can't earn enough to do that. So women are not only expected to be the caregivers, they are also expected to get a job and increase the family's income.

The male role is to be independent, self-sufficient.

The female role is be dependent, self-effacing.

See above.

The degree of male dominance has lessened over history, but it still exists and it's still being taught. Look at all that 'Princess' crap being sold to girls, compared to the 'Action Figures' sold to boys.

Nothing in the 'battle of the sexes' has changed drastically throughout the years. All that has happened is that we, as a society, are currently being told by the media that we need to respect women who have dominant personalities and tolerate less dominant men, because we were long ago educated on the subject by people who saw things in black & white and we should now realize that women have equal rights to men (which has been true for many years but not expressed or portrayed by the media).

I would like someone to give an example that represents how any family is better served by a man who stays home with the children while the woman works one or two jobs.

There are some things in life that are truly 'natural.'

Like gender roles.

If you don't agree, then tell me what you believe would be a better situation.

[loCAtek]

Well, if women are so important to the family, then why are men allowed by many societies to dominate them? You would think women would rule the roost, if motherhood* were really respected, instead of exploited.

*A part of the female gender's role, but not the entirety of her role.

In matriarchal societies, women hold roles of warrior, judge, philosopher and rulers; what many would consider male roles.

In today's society, gay couples raise children with neither of them, being the 'mommy'.

My friend Lucia has a life partner and they have a child they're raising together. As I said, Lucia is very butch, but she says the boy is more hers, even though she isn't the birth mother. Is she fulfilling a male or female gender role; or does that really matter? If she's being a good parent isn't that what should matter?

[oldr_n_wsr]

but she says the boy is more hers,

I don't see how that is being a good parent? What does her partner think about this? Will the kid grow up leaning more on one parent than the other? or playing one against the other, after all he is more hers.

[Sean]

The problem I have with assigning gender roles is the assignment of male as dominant over the female role; they are not equal positions by any stretch.

This story however is not about parents refusing to assign a gender role to their child but refusing to assign a gender to their child. A completely different thing...

[loCAtek]

but she says the boy is more hers,

I don't see how that is being a good parent? What does her partner think about this? Will the kid grow up leaning more on one parent than the other? or playing one against the other, after all he is more hers.

From her accounts, Lucia's the most attentive one; and leaning on one parent more than the other isn't uncommon.

[Guinevere]

The problem I have with assigning gender roles is the assignment of male as dominant over the female role; they are not equal positions by any stretch.

This story however is not about parents refusing to assign a gender role to their child but refusing to assign a gender to their child. A completely different thing...

That's exactly right Sean. The parents are completely missing the point here. The real lesson to teach our kids that gender isn't an excuse for discrimatory treatment, or access to rights. Regardless of the fact that men and women are indeed different, we should all have the same access to education, jobs, healthcare, and all the accoutrements of a free society, so that we can make our own choices abour our path in life. The parents should be *embracing* their child's gender, and then teaching him or her that gender doesn't mean you can't achieve as much as you want to achieve in life -- and do it in a way that honors all people.

[@meric@nwom@n]

The problem I have with assigning gender roles is the assignment of male as dominant over the female role; they are not equal positions by any stretch.

This story however is not about parents refusing to assign a gender role to their child but refusing to assign a gender to their child. A completely different thing...

That's exactly right Sean. The parents are completely missing the point here. The real lesson to teach our kids that gender isn't an excuse for discrimatory treatment, or access to rights. Regardless of the fact that men and women are indeed different, we should all have the same access to education, jobs, healthcare, and all the accoutrements of a free society, so that we can make our own choices abour our path in life. The parents should be *embracing* their child's gender, and then teaching him or her that gender doesn't mean you can't achieve as much as you want to achieve in life -- and do it in a way that honors all people.

oOoOh I like how you put that.

[Guinevere]

Joe Guy, I think your perspective is a bit narrow on the concept of "gender roles." I have a handful of friends where the mother is the main bread winner (lawyers and doctors) and the father is the stay-at-home. In some instances, it was a choice. In others, it was based on who could get and retain the better job. In no cases would I characterize it as one personality domineering another (the men are as well educated as the women, btw). In all instances, the kids are no different than kids in other families.

And what about families where there is no mother? Do they have no heart and soul? Not in my experience.

[Gob]

The parents are completely missing the point here. The real lesson to teach our kids that gender isn't an excuse for discrimatory treatment, or access to rights. Regardless of the fact that men and women are indeed different, we should all have the same access to education, jobs, healthcare, and all the accoutrements of a free society, so that we can make our own choices abour our path in life. The parents should be *embracing* their child's gender, and then teaching him or her that gender doesn't mean you can't achieve as much as you want to achieve in life -- and do it in a way that honors all people.

Bears restating that. As per usual the hippy dippy dipshits have got the wrong end of the p/c stick.

[oldr_n_wsr]

What Guinevere said

[Lord Jim]

The parents are completely missing the point here. The real lesson to teach our kids that gender isn't an excuse for discrimatory treatment, or access to rights. Regardless of the fact that men and women are indeed different, we should all have the same access to education, jobs, healthcare, and all the accoutrements of a free society, so that we can make our own choices abour our path in life. The parents should be *embracing* their child's gender, and then teaching him or her that gender doesn't mean you can't achieve as much as you want to achieve in life -- and do it in a way that honors all people.

Nothing to argue with there.