Joan Rivers

[Big RR]

Wesw--I think most comedians are tortured souls, whether it comes through in their comedy or not; it certainly never showed in Pryor's standup, which was laced with racial stereotypes and shock words (he used the n-word before it even became the n-word). Williams too didn't belie his melancholy in his standup--he used his rapid-fire delivery to cover it up. My guess is Joan was disquieted soul as well--the person never invited to parties in high school who covered her own disappointment by taking them on with meanness (I think Roseann Barr is the same way, but adds the clowning around component). I'm sure there are some happy people who become comedians, but from the ones whose life stories I have an inkling of, it seems far more likely that humor was a way of dealing with hurt and rejection as kids, and they honed it over years of clowning and passive aggression to alleviate the hurt they suffered at the hands of their peers.

IMHO this is especially seen in standup comics, who create a persona that they eventually become on stage (the motor mouth Williams, foul mouthed Pryor, mean Rivers who will say anything for a laugh) and then struggle with keeping their real personality (you know, the one that experienced the hurt) in their personal life; some (like Steve Martin) get lucky and find a way to deal with it or even leave their stage persona aside and go forward, others do not (and some eventually meet tragic ends). I have, through my work, had the chance to meet a few major stand-up comedians in person, and have found that most were either on (and perpetuated their on-stage persona) or were off (and generally stand-offish and moody)--mostly the latter. They were generally smart people, but it was difficult to get them to deal with business matters, although they wanted to be there (and not just relegate it to their agent); it's a tough way to make a living (or to live).

@W--well thanks. I hope to return the compliment some day.

[rubato]

I watched some of the 'best of' clips posted above. Nearly all of her abrasiveness was directed at herself.



yrs,
rubato

[Sue U]

I always liked Joan Rivers. I didn't always like every one of her jokes, but she was fearless in her material -- most of which, as rubato notes, actually makes herself the butt of the joke. Terry Gross did a really interesting interview with her not too long ago; I wish it had been longer, because in the segments where she was really responding to the questions (i.e., not plugging her book and doing pre-planned jokes) you could really hear how she approached her craft and just how driven she was. One thing I didn't know was that she had desperately wanted to be an actress, and got into comedy pretty much by accident. (Digression: Ever since Terry Gross went to national syndication with a 1-hour format I have been rather disappointed. It is was regularly amazing to hear her stretch out in a two- or even three-hour show, where she would engage her guests in really far-ranging conversations about all kinds of topics that really illuminated who they were.)

Anyway, a college friend who covers the Atlantic City casino beat for the Daily News said:

"I covered her for many years in Atlantic City. My recollection of her is that she was always solicitous and interested in what I had to say when we met in person or talked on the phone. If we were at her hotel, she would ask me about my family and keep asking if I wanted something to drink, etc. I remember her as being very "hamish"--Yiddish for "warm" or "decent." Not surprisingly, she was not the ball-buster that was her public persona."

As for comics being tortured souls, by and large they are no more tortured and no more beset by personality disorders than any other group of people. I have had many friends in the stand-up business (two of whom I used to perform with as a comedy musical act), and one thing that always bugged them was the stereotypical characterizations of comics as crying-on-the-inside clowns working-out-their-pain blah blah blah. What (good) comics have is a mental and verbal dexterity that allows them to express a concept in a manner and with a timing that allows for a twist or surprise at the end -- i.e., a set-up and punchline, a/k/a "a joke." Let's face it, it's fun to be funny and clever and to get approval for it. If you can do that consistently on a stage in front of an audience and make them laugh, you may be able to parlay that into a career -- if you also have the drive, determination and stamina it takes to be in any of the performing arts. Creating original material for a stand-up set is a craft requiring real skill, and being a road comic is a hard life; making it to TV or the movies is the holy grail.

[oldr_n_wsr]

RIP Joan Rivers.

[Lord Jim]

(Digression: Ever since Terry Gross went to national syndication with a 1-hour format I have been rather disappointed. It is was regularly amazing to hear her stretch out in a two- or even three-hour show, where she would engage her guests in really far-ranging conversations about all kinds of topics that really illuminated who they were.)

Her interview with Gene Simmons a few years ago was the funniest thing I have ever heard on the radio. I was driving home from the East Bay at the time it came on, and I had to pull off the highway because I laughing so hard I was afraid I might have an accident...

He really punctured her pomposity...

[Big RR]

As for comics being tortured souls, by and large they are no more tortured and no more beset by personality disorders than any other group of people

While I'm sure there are many exceptions, I don't agree based on my experience and much of what I have read. Yes, the successful comics are very good at what they do, but they hone their skills, often from childhood, and like most class clowns they are not among the most popular. I did some stand up after college, mostly open mike stuff and a few paid gigs when I returned (the highest I ever made was $50 when I was invited by the club owner to return) and it takes an incredible amount of work to put together even a 10 minute routine (or really 2 routines as there are 2 shows at most clubs); you're right about the drive and stamina it takes as well (and I'll be the first to admit I didn't have them or, most likely, the talent to succeed). And standup is different from most other types of comedy--you're out their with nothing but your wits (and some prepared jokes)--no pros, no script, nor partners--just you, and you have to be flexible enough to respond to the audience when they aren't with you or, worse, when a heckler is there. It's not easy, and few succeed.

Are they all the "sad clowns"? I imagine not, but many are to some extent (based on the ones I have met), people who have the drive to show off every night for the approval of the audience (even though they may not even admit that's what they're looking for--that's all that ultimately matters). And the best ones can do that night after night, show after show. This approval won't necessarily be shown in applause, but it will be shown in audiences who come to the clubs, and later the shows to see you (even if some are there secretly hoping to see you fall on your ass). IMHO, it takes a certain kind of person to do that; it might seem like fun, but it's a lot more hard work than fun.

[TPFKA@W]

Did I mention she wore fur?

If she had spent her youth hurt you would think it would have mattered to her, even a smidge, that her loud ,crass vulgarity was causing hurt. Apparently making money was more important.

[Big RR]

If I recall correctly, she got into a big fight with an interviewer (on CNN, I think) who asked her about wearing fur.

[Long Run]

You question any cop about how they do their job and you'll be lucky if they just give you an earful (she was the Fashion Police, after all).

[BoSoxGal]

Fresh Air did a compilation show today of interview excerpts with Joan Rivers over the years - it was nice, and offered a real glimpse inside the 'real' Joan.

I didn't like some of her uglier jokes, and her voice always rubbed me wrong, so I wouldn't call her a favorite - but she certainly was a trailblazer for women in her field, and I'm sorry for her family. Sounds like she was terrifically healthy and thus I agree with Sue, a med mal case will likely be announced at some point in the near future.

[Guinevere]

Careful about that "ignoring" comment, Guin; you're liable to be accused of trying to appear morally (or otherwise) superior.

Guin never comes accross to me that way. You on the other hand have a genuine talent for it. Go with your strengths I say.

@W, c'mon, *never* is a big word! Don't you know I'm a condescending, high maintenance, outspoken, liberal biatch?

FWIW, I don't think BigRR comes across as trying to appear morally superior. Opinionated, yes (aren't we all), but not really judgmental. At least that's how I read him.

[TPFKA@W]

Oh Gah! His worst sin was saying the same thing Rubato said.
Meanwhile he has always struck me as a bit holier than me.
(In his mind.). Then he tries to pull you into it. Tsk.

I think the he still sleeps at night.

[Guinevere]

I thought he was being funny/ironic. I believe he was referencing the times I've been accused of attempting to be morally superior when I suggested using the "ignore buttons in our heads."

[TPFKA@W]

I felt it was a nod to our earlier exchange, his and mine I mean. When I say nod I mean swipe really.
Meanwhile I don't care anymore.

You know the summer has flown by and the almanac predicts another blistering winter. Won't it be fun to one-up each other about the sucky weather?

[Lord Jim]

Don't you know I'm a condescending, high maintenance, outspoken, liberal biatch?

Well, my father told me I should never argue with a lady...

It's funny how people perceive things differently...

I have actually criticized Big RR a number of times for being unwilling to be judgmental enough....

If I recall correctly, she got into a big fight with an interviewer (on CNN, I think) who asked her about wearing fur.

I happened to see that, and it wasn't exactly what you'd call a hard hitting interview...

The young woman on CNN who did the interview was very respectful; (she said at the outset how much she admired Rivers, and how happy she was to meet her) for the most part it was a puff piece to promote her book. Rivers got one question about a controversy she had to have been asked about many times before, and she went completely off and started attacking the interviewer. Then she got up and walked out.

I know she used a lot of self-deprecating humor in her act, (and there are a lot of very funny lines of hers posted earlier in this thread; there's no question that she was a gifted comedic talent) but she didn't seem to deal with criticism from others well, (her behavior in the CNN interview and her reaction to the criticisms of her Cleveland kidnapping joke and of her remarks about Gaza being pretty good evidence of this )

I haven't followed Rivers closely enough to know if this has been a lifelong trait, or if it's something that has happened recently as she has gotten older. I do know that sometimes folks who are getting on in years tend to become pretty thin skinned about criticism, (It's kind of an "I don't need to put up with this crap" sort of thing)

(Of course Dale would be able to expound on that far better than I... )

[Joe Guy]

[RayThom]

... comedy is hard. Now if only we can agree as to what 'hard' means.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Big RR - Ray wants you... paging Big RR

[BoSoxGal]

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