A Thread For Posts About The Confederate Battle Flag...

[wesw]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... OI6H3vHEFg

here s a little Scotch-Irish anthem for you, these folks never owned a slave and never wanted one. live and let live, but you better not push too far down...., Copperhead Road....,-Steve Earl.

[wesw]

hey meade, may I pick your brain?

would you happen to know the percentage of southern white males in the civil war era who owned slaves? ...and not just the landed gentry, but including the white trash too......

[MajGenl.Meade]

Here are some figures on families owning slaves

Census data can be appealed to in order to determine the extent of slave ownership in each of the states that allowed it in 1860. The figures given here are the percentage of slave-owning families as a fraction of total free households in the state. The data was taken from a census archive site at the University of Virginia.

Mississippi: 49%
South Carolina: 46%
Georgia: 37%
Alabama: 35%
Florida: 34%

Louisiana: 29%
Texas: 28%
North Carolina: 28%
Virginia: 26%
Tennessee: 25%

Kentucky: 23%
Arkansas: 20%
Missouri: 13%
Maryland: 12%
Delaware: 3%

http://www.civilwarcauses.org/stat.htm

[rubato]

What percentage of people in the rebel states did the right thing morally and fought for the Union and against barbaric cruelty?




yrs,
rubato

[wesw]

when the war starts rubato goes first......

[MajGenl.Meade]

It would appear on the surface that approximately 25-30% of southern white males of military age fought for the Union. That number is achieved though by counting Kentucky and Missouri as "southern" states when in fact both officially remained in the Union, no matter what the Confederacy declared.


Dyer's Compendium, Pt. 1 (Campaigns etc.)
SUMMARY OF TROOPS FURNISHED
Summary of Troops Furnished by the Several States and Territories During the War of the Rebellion
STATES AND TERRITORIES. WhiteTroops
Alabama 2,578
Arkansas 8,289
Florida 1,290
Kentucky 75,760
Louisiana 5,224
Mississippi 545
Missouri 100,616
North Carolina 3,156
Tennessee 31,092
West Virginia 31,872

Total 260,422

Are there no data from South Carolina and Virginia?

The white male population of the eleven Confederate states, aged fifteen to thirty‐nine, was approximately 1 million. The best estimates of total Confederate enlistments range from 850,000 to 900,000.

Operative word there is ELEVEN. I can't be bothered to do that math but it sure looks as if a more reliable answer is found by deducting Kentucky and Missouri numbers from Union service and comparing the reduced total to the 850-900K number

[oldr_n_wsr]

labeling half the country bigots is just crazy. crazy in terms of accuracy and in terms of the results that these claims will produce.

wesw, take any outrageous claim and treat it as it deserves to be treated, by being laughed at. Claims like that say more about the one who posted it than the subject/people being posted on.

And in times when you feel it's all just plain crazy, recite the Serenity Prayer.

And sometimes, we just have to take a break from the place. I've done it.

[wesw]

meade, I find those slave owning stats highly suspect. I would venture to say that only propertied classes were included.

but thanks for taking the time to get the stats.....

[wesw]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... hIt8iDhIHw

this was one of my dad s favorites when I was a boy, he was the epitome of this song. it became one of mine when I rediscovered it as a man.....

johnny cash-man in black......

[MajGenl.Meade]

meade, I find those slave owning stats highly suspect. I would venture to say that only propertied classes were included. but thanks for taking the time to get the stats.....

That is really quite astounding, wesw. You have no idea as to the numbers but you "find" actual statistical data to be "highly suspect". On what basis, other than that you don't want it to be true? It certainly can spoil a narrative about southerners fighting only for freedom because only the rich had slaves etc.

The figures given here are the percentage of slave-owning families as a fraction of total free households in the state.

The 1860 Federal Census records all persons, not just property owners. Each page contains several free households. Cross reference to slave census information shows that 46% of South Carolina households or families owned 1 or more slaves in 1860.

54% of families did not own slaves in South Carolina. It is certainly possible that the 54% represents a larger number of individuals than the 46% does. Families too poor to own even one slave may well have had more children.

You're welcome

[wesw]

thanks meade. I still doubt that many of the hillbillies and poor folk were counted...... white trash don t count......

[rubato]

It would appear on the surface that approximately 25-30% of southern white males of military age fought for the Union. That number is achieved though by counting Kentucky and Missouri as "southern" states when in fact both officially remained in the Union, no matter what the Confederacy declared.


Dyer's Compendium, Pt. 1 (Campaigns etc.)
SUMMARY OF TROOPS FURNISHED
Summary of Troops Furnished by the Several States and Territories During the War of the Rebellion
STATES AND TERRITORIES. WhiteTroops
Alabama 2,578
Arkansas 8,289
Florida 1,290
Kentucky 75,760
Louisiana 5,224
Mississippi 545
Missouri 100,616
North Carolina 3,156
Tennessee 31,092
West Virginia 31,872

Total 260,422

Are there no data from South Carolina and Virginia?

The white male population of the eleven Confederate states, aged fifteen to thirty‐nine, was approximately 1 million. The best estimates of total Confederate enlistments range from 850,000 to 900,000.

Operative word there is ELEVEN. I can't be bothered to do that math but it sure looks as if a more reliable answer is found by deducting Kentucky and Missouri numbers from Union service and comparing the reduced total to the 850-900K number

So there were a lot of southern white males who fought honorably and had the moral courage to do what was right.

I am encouraged, I had thought that the number was only a third of that.


yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

thanks meade. I still doubt that many of the hillbillies and poor folk were counted...... white trash don t count......

Take it up with the government wesw. You apparently know a lot more about the 1860 census than the Feds do.

ETA: Oh that's a bit petulant. Try this instead:

Every Federal census undercounts. It is likely that folks who are difficult to access (e.g. in the mountains) may be missed more often than folks in the center of towns. You can also reasonably surmise that a slave holding "household" may also have contained a number of white laborers. A farm that had one slave for the house - cooking, cleaning etc. may well have also had farm laborers on it. So there's one slave owner; a wife; 2 children maybe; 1 slave; and 3 laborers.

However, that does not at all negate the point that 46% of South Carolina family groups/households held at least one slave. And you can bet that those 3 laborers (above) were familiar with slavery and held blacks in contempt.

Whatever point you are trying to make, it is not borne out by the actual numbers

[wesw]

just for 'cooter.....

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... gpfofVIwsQ

[MajGenl.Meade]

wesw,

Here's a link that provides a greater breakdown - very interesting. It bears out what I said above about 1 slave owner vs 3 laborers etc. Compare the number of slave owners with the total free population of each state. There's a very different picture than comparing slave-owning households with total population.

http://www.civil-war.net/pages/1860_census.html

[BoSoxGal]

[Lord Jim]

Any citizen of the CSA who took up arms to fight against it in the army of a foreign power, (such as, say, the United States) would be the real "traitor":

Sec. 3. (I) Treason against the Confederate States shall consist only in levying war against.them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

[Guinevere]

Any citizen of the CSA who took up arms to fight against it in the army of a foreign power, (such as, say, the United States) would be the real "traitor":

Sec. 3. (I) Treason against the Confederate States shall consist only in levying war against.them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

Oh. My. Freaking. God.

Meade --- THREE BLIND MICE above, in LJ's post.

[liberty]

Just one of the many southern traitors that fought honorably in WWII:

Eugene Sledge was a proud Southerner.
“The Japanese fought to win - it was a savage, brutal, inhumane, exhausting and dirty business. Our commanders knew that if we were to win and survive, we must be trained realistically for it whether we liked it or not. In the post-war years, the U.S. Marine Corps came in for a great deal of undeserved criticism in my opinion, from well-meaning persons who did not comprehend the magnitude of stress and horror that combat can be. The technology that developed the rifle barrel, the machine gun and high explosive shells has turned war into prolonged, subhuman slaughter. Men must be trained realistically if they are to survive it without breaking, mentally and physically.”

[Scooter]

Any evidence at all that Sledge supported the Confederate cause? Anything will do.

You dirty the man's name by invoking it.