Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's America

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Lord Jim
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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

Post by Lord Jim »

I have empathy for children, but I blame the liberals. They won’t do anything about the open southern border. So if we are going have open borders we should have totally open borders, no port of entry, no controls at all coming or going.
Lib, I see you're buying into Trump's false choice, "my draconian solutions, or open borders and MS-13 running unchecked all over the US"...

(I used to consider Barack Obama to be the "King Of The False Choice", but as with virtually every other negative or intellectually dishonest conduct a President can engage in, Trump kicks it up to a whole new level....)

Lib, permit me to provide you with a little of the recent history at efforts to craft some sort of comprehensive immigration reform (it's slightly more complicated than you suggest.):

George W. Bush first tried to get this issue handled, with the proposed Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007:
The Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007 (full name: Secure Borders, Economic Opportunity and Immigration Reform Act of 2007 (S. 1348)) was a bill discussed in the 110th United States Congress that would have provided legal status and a path to citizenship for the approximately 12 million undocumented immigrants residing in the United States. The bill was portrayed as a compromise between providing a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants and increased border enforcement: it included funding for 300 miles (480 km) of vehicle barriers, 105 camera and radar towers, and 20,000 more Border Patrol agents, [not exactly "open borders"]while simultaneously restructuring visa criteria around high-skilled workers.

The bills received heated criticism from both the right wing and the left wing. Conservatives rejected providing a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants, as it would reward them for disregarding United States immigration laws. Liberals criticized the points-based system and provisions limiting family reunification visas available to only nuclear family members of US citizens as unfair. Labor unions, human rights, and some Hispanic organizations attacked the guest workers program, claiming that it would create a group of underclass workers with no benefits.[14]

Another criticism of the guest workers program was that because each guest worker is required to return home for a year before renewing his or her visa, these workers would instead overstay their visa, becoming illegal immigrants.

The bill's sole sponsor in the Senate was Majority Leader Harry Reid, though it was crafted in large part as a result of efforts by Senators Kennedy, McCain and Kyl, along with Senator Lindsey Graham, and input from President George W. Bush, who strongly supported the bill. For that reason it was referred to in the press by various combinations of these five men's names, most commonly "Kennedy-Kyl".

A larger group of senators was involved in creating the bill, sometimes referred to as the 'Gang of 12'.[1] Senator David Vitter of Louisiana led the opposition to the bill, clashing with McCain and Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska.[2]

On June 7, three Senate votes on cloture (a move to end discussion) for the bill failed with the first losing 33–63, the second losing 34–61 and the third losing 45–50.[3] This had been thought by some observers to signal the end of the bill's chances, since on that day, after the first failing vote, Harry Reid had told reporters that, if another vote on cloture failed, "the bill's over with. The bill's gone."[4]

However, at the urging of President Bush, the bill was brought back for discussion in the Senate as bill S. 1639 on June 25.[5] On June 26, a motion to proceed passed the Senate, by a margin of 64–35 (under Senate rules it needed 60 votes).[6] A number of amendments to the bill were considered and rejected. On June 28, the bill failed to get the 60 votes necessary to end debate. The final cloture vote lost 46-53.[7] This effectively ended its chances, and President Bush said he was disappointed at Congress's failure to act on the issue.[8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehen ... ct_of_2007

So, if one wants to assess this first effort fairly, a reasonable conclusion would be that it was a compromise put together by leaders of both parties that was sunk by hardcore rank and file elements of both parties that refused to accept compromise...

Now it's true that during the period from January 2009 to January 2011 when the Democrats controlled the White House and both houses of Congress they did nothing about this issue, so that's on them.

That brings us to the Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013, another bipartisan compromise:
The Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013 (S.744) was a proposed immigration reform bill introduced by Sen. Charles Schumer (D-NY) in the United States Senate [1] and co-sponsored by the other seven members of the "Gang of Eight", a bipartisan group of U.S. Senators who wrote and negotiated the bill. It was introduced into the Senate of the 113th United States Congress on April 16, 2013.

The Senate Judiciary Committee held hearings on the bill in April 2013.[2] The bill was voted out of Committee on May 21, 2013 and was placed on the Senate calendar.[3] On June 27, 2013, the Senate passed the bill on 68-32 margin. The bill was not considered by United States House of Representatives and died in the 113th Congress.

If enacted, the bill would have made it possible for many undocumented immigrants to gain legal status and eventually citizenship. It would have increased border security by adding up to 40,000 border patrol agents. It also would have advanced talent-based immigration through a points-based immigration system. New visas had been proposed in this legislation, including a visa for entrepreneurs and a W visa for lower skilled workers.[4] It also proposed new restrictions on H1B visa program to prevent its abuse and additional visas/green-cards for students with science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) degrees from U.S. institutions. The bill also included a $1.5 billion youth jobs program and repealed the Diversity Visa Lottery in favor of prospective legal immigrants who are already in the United States. [Again, not exactly "open borders"]

The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office estimated this reform bill would have reduced the U.S. fiscal deficit by US$197 billion over the next ten years and by $700 billion by 2033.[5] Its report also states that, if the bill had been passed, U.S. wages would have been 0.1 percent lower in 2023 and 0.5 percent higher in 2033 than under current law.[6] The Social Security Administration said that it would help add $276 billion in revenue over the next 10 years while costing only $33 billion.[7]

This bill proposes earned legalization for illegal immigrants (they have to wait for 13 years, pay all back taxes, learn English, no legalization for people with criminal records, and citizenship or permanent residence only after the border becomes fully secure).

Conservative Republicans in the U.S. House of Representatives opposed this bill. House Republicans and Speaker Boehner have said that this bill will not be introduced on the House floor, a tactic which has been called anti-democratic by some as it prohibits U.S. House members from conducting a debate and a poll on this bill due to a so-called Hastert Rule.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Se ... ct_of_2013

So Boehner and the right wing of the House GOP own the defeat of this effort. If Boehner had put this bill on the House floor, which passed with bipartisan support on in the Senate, it would have passed, albeit without "the majority of the majority" . (The decision would probably also have cost Boehner his Speakership, but I really wonder if in retrospect considering everything that's happened since, if he wishes he had done it anyway.)

So Lib, we have one effort sunk by both sides, one missed opportunity owned by the Democrats, and another effort sunk by the GOP....

Like I said, the facts are a little more complicated then, "I blame the liberals. They won’t do anything about the open southern border. "...
Last edited by Lord Jim on Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Scooter
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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

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You know you're fucked when United Airlines has a better moral compass than your government:

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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

Post by Econoline »

A bit of historical perspective on this issue... (from the 1980 *REPUBLICAN* debates!)

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Lord Jim
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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

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You know you're fucked when United Airlines has a better moral compass than your government:
Of course, once again we're talking about a very low bar...

A hungry crocodile has a better moral compass than this government...
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Scooter
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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

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Big RR
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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

Post by Big RR »

Abandoning the constitution, let alone common decency, the refuge of every demagogue in the US. Some have claimed the circumstances dictated it, others that they knew better, but in the end all have acted shamefully.

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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

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:evil:
Somewhere, deep in the mine, the canaries have stopped chirping.
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

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Remember when the most embarrassing thing about a President was some mangled syntax, or an occasional incident of physical clumsiness?

Good times...
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rubato
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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

Post by rubato »

The number of agents assigned to the southern border increased by 141% under Clinton and there were large increases under both GW Bush and Obama. The idea that liberals are in favor of an open border is just stupid. Consistent Libertarians, on the other hand, are in favor of open borders.

The largest lobby in favor of not enforcing the border is the farm lobby who are demographically, conservative.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... er-agents/

yrs,
rubato

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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

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Lord Jim wrote:Remember when the most embarrassing thing about a President was some mangled syntax, or an occasional incident of physical clumsiness?

Good times...
Let’s not forget the whole starting an illegal war based on lies - that’s beyond embarrassing and hundreds of thousands of lives have been ended or destroyed from that, not to mention many billions from our treasury wasted while our infrastructure degrades and many of our people suffer.

I just watched Fair Game last night so it’s all fresh in my head and I’m reminded how Dubya laid the groundwork for Trump by lying about the most important of things.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Econoline
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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

I want it known clearly.... I am totally against baking gay people, whether in cakes, pies or souffles.
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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

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I don’t know hard to beat Taft
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

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Federal judge orders reunification of parents and children, end to most family separations at border

(CNN) A federal judge in California late Tuesday ordered a halt to most family separations at the US border and the reunification of all families that have been separated in the first major rebuke to the Trump administration during ongoing furor over family separations at the border.

The court order specifically requires federal officials to stop detaining parents apart from their minor children, absent a determination the parent is unfit or the parent declines reunification; reunify all parents with their minor children who are under the age of 5 within 14 days and reunify all parents with their minor children age 5 and older within 30 days.

The order also mandates that officials provide parents contact with their children by phone within 10 days, if the parent is not already in contact with his or her child.
"Plaintiffs have demonstrated a likelihood of success on the merits, irreparable harm, and that the balance of equities and the public interest weigh in their favor, thus warranting issuance of a preliminary injunction," US District Court Judge Dana Sabraw wrote Tuesday.

The judge's order does not mean the Trump administration must stop prosecuting people who cross the border illegally.

"This Order does not implicate the Government's discretionary authority to enforce immigration or other criminal laws, including its decisions to release or detain class members. Rather, the Order addresses only the circumstances under which the Government may separate class members from their children, as well as the reunification of class members who are returned to immigration custody upon completion of any criminal proceedings," Sabraw explained.

The American Civil Liberties Union originally filed the case against the Trump administration in February on behalf of a Congolese woman seeking asylum in the US who was separated from her 7-year-old daughter. The group now represents a wider class of plaintiffs.

"This ruling is an enormous victory for parents and children who thought they may never see each other again. Tears will be flowing in detention centers across the country when the families learn they will be reunited," said Lee Gelernt, the Deputy Director of the ACLU's Immigrants' Rights Project, who argued the case.

A Justice Department spokesperson said the decision "makes it even more imperative that Congress finally act to give federal law enforcement the ability to simultaneously enforce the law and keep families together.

"Without this action by Congress, lawlessness at the border will continue, which will only lead to predictable results -- more heroin and fentanyl pushed by Mexican cartels plaguing our communities, a surge in MS-13 gang members, and an increase in the number of human trafficking prosecutions," the spokesperson said.

Sabraw's order also referred to the family separations at the border -- brought on by a Trump administration decision to refer all people caught crossing the border illegally for criminal prosecution -- as reaching "a crisis level."

"The news media is saturated with stories of immigrant families being separated at the border. People are protesting. Elected officials are weighing in. Congress is threatening action. Seventeen states have now filed a complaint against the Federal Government challenging the family separation practice," Sabraw wrote.

The judge was also intensely critical of the administration's attempt to implement the new policy.

"The practice of separating these families was implemented without any effective system or procedure for (1) tracking the children after they were separated from their parents, (2) enabling communication between the parents and their children after separation, and (3) reuniting the parents and children after the parents are returned to immigration custody following completion of their criminal sentence. This is a startling reality," the judge wrote.

"The government readily keeps track of personal property of detainees in criminal and immigration proceedings. Money, important documents, and automobiles, to name a few, are routinely catalogued, stored, tracked and produced upon a detainees' release, at all levels—state and federal, citizen and alien. Yet, the government has no system in place to keep track of, provide effective communication with, and promptly produce alien children. The unfortunate reality is that under the present system migrant children are not accounted for with the same efficiency and accuracy as property. Certainly, that cannot satisfy the requirements of due process."

"The facts set forth before the Court portray reactive governance -- responses to address a chaotic circumstance of the Government's own making. They belie measured and ordered governance, which is central to the concept of due process enshrined in our Constitution," Sabraw added.

The judge has set a status hearing for July 6.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

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Easy to see why Trump hates judges...
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Scooter
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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

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Yeah, they have this pesky habit of enforcing the law that he just can't stand.

Unless their names are Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Gorsuch and Kennedy, of course, in which case they just give him a 5-on-1 rim job.
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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

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Re: Children's concentration camps - welcome to Trump's Amer

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I don’t know if you look at the enterprises he set up it kind of makes atrumps point.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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