Osama Bin Laden has been killed

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Big RR
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by Big RR »

LJ--
Given the elaborate security systems we create to protect out own leaders, I think that could backfire.


I realize of course Big RR, that you have an extremely difficult time recognizing moral distinctions of almost any sort, but please tell me that you are not trying to draw some sort of bizarre moral equivalence between the protection of elected leaders from murderous thugs who would seek to overturn the decisions of the people with a bullet or a bomb, and the security of a brutal thug who masterminded the murder of thousands of innocent people.
Huh? What kind of moral equivalence am I trying to draw? Come on, all I said is that if the government were to say something along the lines rubato advocated (like see what a coward he was because he used an elaborate security system to protect him), we ran the risk of having the same charge levied against our own leaders protected by elaborate security systems. I advanced no opinion as the equivalence, moral or otherwise, of the two alternatives, only pointed out what the likely response of bin laden supporters could be. Calm down a bit; must you try and attack my every comment from using your sense of morality? It's pretty silly when it doesn't apply to what I said.

rubato--
It's his heroic myth. Not ours.
Point taken.

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Gob
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by Gob »

Someone's been shaking the trees, the nuts are falling out..
US radio host Alex Jones, who believes the US government was behind the September 11 attacks, said the government "had Osama bin Laden frozen for years" and concocted the killing to justify a security crackdown.

Others say bin Laden has been dead for years and the US government continued to release videos of him to encourage support for the war on terrorism.

Other conservative US bloggers such as Michael Walker from the site Big Government have demanded that Mr Obama lay the terrorist's corpse out in lower Manhattan.

Many of the conspiracy theorists are gathering on the Tea Party Nation website. "Don't you think Obama needs something to assure his re-election," wrote one commenter.

In one of the more bizarre theories, some are even claiming that Mr Obama timed the announcement to knock off Donald Trump's reality show Celebrity Apprentice, as payback for Mr Trump's recent "birther" campaign against him.

Anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan, whose son was killed in Iraq in 2004, wrote on Facebook: "I am sorry, but if you believe the newest death of OBL, you're stupid. Just think to yourself - they paraded Saddam's dead sons around to prove they were dead - why do you suppose they hastily buried this version of OBL at sea? This lying, murderous Empire can only exist with your brainwashed consent - just put your flags away and THINK!"



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/technology/techno ... z1LHRvTZ3R
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dgs49
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by dgs49 »

I'm not sure what is gained when nutballs are quoted to "prove" that one political side is loonier than the other. Nutballs abound on all sides of the political spectrum. The problem arises when they are appointed to high-level government positions ("Czar") without any Congressional approval or oversight.

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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by quaddriver »

If we hate the russians so much why are our non-oversighted high level govt positions called 'Czars' (and 'Czarinas?)

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Sue U
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by Sue U »

We hate the Russians?

(BTW, the Russians hated the Czar.)
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Lord Jim
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by Lord Jim »

Nutballs abound on all sides of the political spectrum.
That's quite true Dave, and the article Strop quoted points this out. (Did you see the quote from Sheehan?)

9/11 and OBL in particular is very equal opportunity when it comes to bringing out the the kookaboos on both the left and right. There are some on the left who don't even believe OBL was involved in 9/11; it was all GWB, Rumsfeld and Cheney....
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Lord Jim
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by Lord Jim »

I'd like to make a point regarding some of the hand wringing that has gone on about "retaliation". I think it completely misses the point.

These folks are going to continue to try to attack us, at the maximum level of their capabilities, without regard to what we do. This is why they're in business; it's their whole raison darte...

Instead of fretting that actions we take against them will lead them to take actions against us, what we need to focus on are defensive measures to make the success of their attacks less likely, and offensive measures to degrade their capabilities to carry out attacks.

The operation that took out Bin Ladin unquestionably helps to degrade those capabilities. Not only by removing the top guy, but also because of the huge amount of intel that was also seized in the raid.
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Sue U
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by Sue U »

Lord Jim wrote:I'd like to make a point regarding some of the hand wringing that has gone on about "retaliation". I think it completely misses the point.

These folks are going to continue to try to attack us, at the maximum level of their capabilities, without regard to what we do. This is why they're in business; it's their whole raison darte...
I agree. I heard worrying speculation on the radio about whether there had been some sort of massive attack pre-planned in the event of OBL's capture or death. And I thought, that's just stupid; if they had the capacity to launch an attack, they'd be doing it regardless; they wouldn't wait for some unknowable day under unknowable conditions. Their whole purpose is to strike as soon and as often as possible.
GAH!

Andrew D
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by Andrew D »

Lord Jim wrote:We're not going to stop having to take our shoes off when we go through airport security just because Osama Bin Ladin is dead.....
Of course not. Neither Osama Bin Laden nor terrorism was the reason for it in the first place.
Reason is valuable only when it performs against the wordless physical background of the universe.

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Sue U
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by Sue U »

Nice to see you back, Andrew. Hope you are well.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by Lord Jim »

I heard worrying speculation on the radio about whether there had been some sort of massive attack pre-planned in the event of OBL's capture or death. And I thought, that's just stupid; if they had the capacity to launch an attack, they'd be doing it regardless; they wouldn't wait for some unknowable day under unknowable conditions. Their whole purpose is to strike as soon and as often as possible.
Exactly; if they had the elements in place to launch a major terrorist attack, they would do so immediately. Waiting for some specific triggering event would make absolutely no sense from their perspective. The longer they waited, the better the chance that something would go wrong; somebody involved could be captured or get cold feet, their weapons or bomb material cache could be discovered, their communications could be disrupted, etc.

Over at the CSB Kiko has speculated, (Kiko frequently comes up with some very ...uh...novel and original speculations) that Obama may have waited until after the Royal Wedding to launch the raid to avoid a "blood bath" in London. Absolute rubbish. They would have loved to launch a major terrorist attack in London during the wedding, and if they had had the assets in place to do it, they would certainly have done so.

In fact they'd love to launch a major terrorist attack (especially in a large Western city) any time they could possibly do so. The one and only reason that they haven't lately is because they haven't had the capabilities to do it. We need to do everything we can to make sure that situation continues.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by Lord Jim »

Of course not. Neither Osama Bin Laden nor terrorism was the reason for it in the first place.
A conspiracy on the part of the sock manufacturing industry then?

My recollection is that that particular security procedure came about as a direct result of the plane bombing attempt (which sure sounds like terrorism to me) that was carried out by Richard Reed, the "shoe bomber" who had concealed explosives in his shoes.
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Sue U
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by Sue U »

Lord Jim wrote:Over at the CSB Kiko has speculated, (Kiko frequently comes up with some very ...uh...novel and original speculations) that Obama may have waited until after the Royal Wedding to launch the raid to avoid a "blood bath" in London.
Well, given the history of Predator drone strikes on wedding parties, her concerns were not entirely misplaced.
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Andrew D
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by Andrew D »

Lord Jim wrote:
Of course not. Neither Osama Bin Laden nor terrorism was the reason for it in the first place.
A conspiracy on the part of the sock manufacturing industry then?

My recollection is that that particular security procedure came about as a direct result of the plane bombing attempt (which sure sounds like terrorism to me) that was carried out by Richard Reed, the "shoe bomber" who had concealed explosives in his shoes.
That was the excuse, not the reason.
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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

OK I'll bite. What was the reason then? Foot fetish?
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Lord Jim
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by Lord Jim »

OK I'll bite. What was the reason then? Foot fetish?
I'm going to go way out on a limb here Gen'l....

And guess that given the poster, the "reason" that will be proffered will involve some dastardly, nefarious skulduggery on the part of the Bush Administration....
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Andrew D
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by Andrew D »

Lord Jim wrote:I'm going to go way out on a limb here Gen'l....

And guess that given the poster, the "reason" that will be proffered will involve some dastardly, nefarious skulduggery on the part of the Bush Administration....
That is far too myopic. Long before Shrub ever started masquerading as the President, very powerful interests wanted Americans to be subject to search and seizure anywhere, at any time, and for no articulated reason. Terrorist attacks were their golden opportunity, and they have expoited and continue to exploit it to the fullest.

It is true, of course, that those authoritarian proclivities found a more comfortable home on the right than on the left: Right-wingism and authoritarianism have an inherently hand-and-glove relationship. But the left is by no means innocent. And the driving interests are neither left nor right. Their concern is not ideology; it is power.

Search-and-seizure rights have been steadily eroded for a long time. One can see it, for example, in the Supreme Court's self-consuming standard of an expectation of privacy. The Court says that for an expectation of privacy to be recognized by the law, it must be one which society considers objectively reasonable. That contains the seeds of the destruction of privacy altogether.

Today, the government does some invasive thing which the Court finds to be at the very edge of permissibility, but permissible. As time goes by, people become accustomed to that thing. So after a while, when the government does some other invasive thing that would have been impermissible a few years ago, what "society considers objectively reasonable" has shifted. The previously impermissible thing is now at the very edge of permissibility, but permissible. And that causes the "objectively reasonable" line to shift again. And more things become permissible. And that shifts the line yet again. And even more things become permissible. Eventually, no expectation of privacy is "objectively reasonable," and the government can search anyone it wants, wherever it wants, whenever it wants, and without giving any reason.

Which is the underlying purpose.

Suppose that when those of us who are now in our forties were children, some local government had decided that it could search every bag carried onto a public-transit vehicle. People would not have put up with that for a minute. But now we have been conditioned to accept such things. And the conditioning goes on. When full-body scanners were introduced, people were permitted to shield their genitals from observation. Now, people are expected to submit to genital groping in order to board a plane. Give it a while, and body-cavity searches will be considered as routine as the e-ticket.

That ongoing shrinking of the zone of personal privacy has been engineered primarily via the right. But here's an aggrandizement of government power at the expense of liberty from the left: the absolutely asinine rule that one has no right to resist an unlawful arrest. The core of the "reasoning" underlying that rule is that if one's arrest is unlawful, one can vindicate one's right not to be arrested through legal processes.

But that is exactly false: The minutes or hours or days of my life that are taken from me cannot be restored through any legal process. The loss is irretrievable, and nothing can compensate for it. The real genesis of the rule is power: Those who have it want to ensure that the rest of us are compliant drones.

And on and on and on.

In the end, it is not about left and right. The right is the vanguard of the erosion of liberty -- and again, not at all alone, just at the forefront -- because a core value of right-wingism is the elevation of social order above individual liberty. But that does not mean that those who have the power are themselves disposed toward right-wingism; it means merely that those in power find in the right a better vehicle than in the left to advance their own interests.

Not that those who have the power have found much difficulty using the left to advance their ends. The principal difference is that those who have the power exploit the right primarily by appealing to its basest impulses, whereas the exploit the left primarily by taking advantange of its blindness to its own excesses.

There is an impenetrable morass of federal regulations concerning interstate commerce (and things which "substantially affect" interstate commerce, a label which includes things that have not even the slightest effect on interstate commerce). For Mom and Pop's neighborhood grocery, complying with those regulations is often onerous. To Wal-Mart, they are a profit-inhibitor, but they are far from onerous. So Wal-Mart exploits the onerous burden on Mom and Pop to claim that the burden should be lessened not only on Mom and Pop but also on Wal-Mart. And people quite naturally sympathize with Mom and Pop, so there is a reaction against regulation, a reaction from which Wal-Mart benefits.

In truth, of course, Wal-Mart does not give a rat's ass about what is good for Mom and Pop. Quite the contrary, Wal-Mart wants Mom and Pop to go out of business. Wal-Mart's ultmate goal is to be the only retailer of everything. And it exploits sympathy for Mom and Pop precisely in order to eliminate Mom and Pop from the market which Wal-Mart wants to control.

The fundamental difference between, on one hand, the relationship of those who have power to the left and, on the other hand, the relationship of those who have power to the right is this: Those who have power manipulate the left into supporting what it does not want, whereas those who have power egg on the right in its support of what it does want. In both cases, what those who have power want is the same: utter servility.
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Timster
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by Timster »

Otherwise known as 'The Boiling Frog Syndrome'...
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer-

dgs49
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by dgs49 »

I'm not buying it.

Who is it who benefits from the indignities we suffer at airports?

Nobody.

Everybody hates it, everybody suffers. One could argue very forcefully that a lot of it is stupid, reactionary, pointless, and poorly organized, but it is not part of a conspiracy to take away our liberties, it is a conspiracy to make us think that everything that can be done to make us safe is being done.

In that sense, the Terrorists have won. THEY have taken away some (actually, all) of the enjoyment that used to be part and parcel of an airplane ride.

Andrew D
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Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed

Post by Andrew D »

dgs49 wrote:One could argue very forcefully that a lot of it is stupid, reactionary, pointless, and poorly organized, but it is not part of a conspiracy to take away our liberties, it is a conspiracy to make us think that everything that can be done to make us safe is being done.
But those are not different things. They are the same thing. The conspiracy to take away our liberties is the conspiracy to make us think that everything that is being done is being done to make us safe.
In that sense, the Terrorists have won. THEY have taken away some (actually, all) of the enjoyment that used to be part and parcel of an airplane ride.
No, unfortunately, WE have taken that away.

We who have acquiesced in the robbery of our freedom have taken it away. We who have said "Oh, sure, you can search me and my things ven though you have no reason to" have taken it away. We who have said "9-11 changed everything" have taken it away.

We are responsible. Every time that one of us does not kick in the head someone who presumes to grope our genitals so that we can board an airplane, we are guilty.

We are all -- all of us -- participating in the demise of everything that makes America good. And in the end, we will have no one to blame but ourselves.
Reason is valuable only when it performs against the wordless physical background of the universe.

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