Freedom of billboard rights.

[Scooter]

And how many men out there are prepared to take on the responsibilities of a single father if the mother chooses to bail? In 6 years in child welfare I could count the number I came across on one hand with three of the fingers turned down.

[@meric@nwom@n]

But consequences of someone else's choice over which you have no control? In which you have no say?

From the first moment the man has complete control over it. You simply refuse to acknowledge that control.

[Scooter]

It's like saying "let's pretend that the conception played absolutely no role in the subsequent birth of the child".

[Andrew D]

On and on and on.

After conception, the woman has all the rights. The man can be stuck with the burdens caused by the woman's unilateral choice.

We have yet to see any serious response to that fact. We have seen a lot of evasions, but we have seen no one actually come to grips with that fact.

No one.

Nothing.

A bucketload of blather, but no serious response.

None.

Nothing.

If you all ever get tired of congratulating each other for evading the issue, get back to us.

Until then, yawn.

[Sean]

Just to play Devil's advocate...

I've read a lot of "keep it in your pants" and "wear a condom" posts in this thread. All well and good but how about this (true) situation...

There is a happily married man and woman. After much thought they agree that they are ready to have a child. The condoms are put aside and they start trying. Some time later she becomes pregnant. At first they are overjoyed but after a few weeks she gets cold feet, decides that she isn't ready for a child after all and has an abortion. Her husband is unaware of any of this until after she has had the abortion. He is distraught as he really wanted this child. I have known this man for many years so have known how much becoming a dad meant to him. To cut a long story short, this situation led to the break-up of their marriage.

Now, could somebody explain to me how advice such as "keep it in your pants" and "wear a condom" could possibly have been helpful to him? These little titbits of blase advice are easy to give but they are not always applicable.

[@meric@nwom@n]

I agree that it is vastly unfair to the man. There is little a man can do about it after the fact and presumably he did not the woman as well as he thought he did. It is none the less the right of the woman to do this since she has to assume 100% of the physical consequences.

Again, I ask how can you explain a way to make this fair?

[Sean]

I know not of any way to make it fair @W. I wish I did...

Andrew, you said you posted in the past of a way. As I missed that would you be kind enough to post it again?

[BoSoxGal]

From someone who is normally so reasonable, I am a bit surprised to see the head banging brick mentality of your contributions on this subject, Andrew D.

It makes every bit of sense that our society has taken the positions it has with regard to rights of women with regard to pregnancy. Pregnancy is the woman's burden to bear, solely, with regard to physical and psychological ramifications that may arise.

Once a child is born, regardless of whether s/he is wanted or unwanted by the parents, that child has a right to be supported by both persons who provided biological material to bring the child into existence. Society has a right to demand that those persons provide such support; even children who have been removed from their parents due to abuse/neglect are still entitled to financial support from those parents, which is really no different than the 'poor fathers without rights' argument you keep posing over and over.

Parents whose children have been removed from them against their will are required by law to support those children, because it is the child who is entitled to the support - because it is the child who really had NO CHOICE in the matter of its existence.

Men have a choice and women have a choice, at different stages of the process. Children have NO CHOICE, so we collectively protect their rights above those of the adults - stupid or not - involved.

[@meric@nwom@n]

His position appears to be that men should be able to opt out at will.

There are a number of men like that who have issue they don't feel they must support. I would call them ignorant asshole cowards. They all need to man up and take the responsibiities which walk hand in hand with human sexuality.

No amount of argument justifies opting out.

[Andrew D]

Women can opt out at will. Why not men?

[Scooter]

Women can't opt out at will once the child is born.

[Andrew D]

And whether the child is born or not is entirely up to them. They can opt out after conception but before the child is born. Why not men?

[@meric@nwom@n]

Because biology dictates that they can. Your bitch is with mother nature.

[Scooter]

Ask me again when men are able to get pregnant and are not afforded a similar right.

[Guinevere]

Andrew, rational or not, I've explained my position, and I've accepted its flaws. You asked for those of us taking that position to "own up" and so I did, as did others here.

If you'd like to discuss whether an equitable solution can be obtained that balances the rights of both parties (the man and the woman), and still considers the rights of the child, I'm not sure such a solution exists. And nothing you've asserted so far has changed my mind.

It's not a particularly difficult exercise to balance the rights of the man and woman, and find a solution, you did that yourself many posts ago. Can you do the same when you consider the rights of the child?

Assume the parties are responsible, use reliable birth control properly, the birth control fails and a pregnancy results. The woman unilaterally carries the pregnancy to term, and a child is born, without ever informing the man. Does the woman bear all of the responsibility for the support and maintenance of the child and because she refused to involve him in the decision to remain pregnant, has she waived her right to child support? Why should the child live a life less materially enriched because the woman made a unilateral decision?

[@meric@nwom@n]

Ask me again when men are able to get pregnant and are not afforded a similar right.

What a changed world it would be if men could become pregnant!

[Jarlaxle]

Women can't opt out at will once the child is born.

In most states...they most certainly can.

[Scooter]

Yeah, yeah, we've been through that in this thread already, it's a right that is not exclusive to women. And if the other parent objects, then neither can opt out.

[Andrew D]

Because biology dictates that they can. Your bitch is with mother nature.

And does biology dictate that men cannot?

I didn't think so.

[Andrew D]

Ask me again when men are able to get pregnant and are not afforded a similar right.

Have you been taking posting lessons from Lord Jim?

Everyone knows that men do not get pregnant.

Do you have answer to the question or not?