Democratic Debate

[BoSoxGal]

According to this informal poll, Bernie killed Hillary.

http://fox5sandiego.com/2016/02/11/poll ... ic-debate/

Did anybody watch?

[Lord Jim]

Bernie killed Hillary.

Well, that seems a bit extreme...

[MajGenl.Meade]

Watched it all. Think I'll donate to Bernie's cause. Hillary is so poised and smooth. Makes me sick. It was a wonderful change from the Republican "debates" which have been crap. Trust PBS to put the focus on the candidates and not on the personalities and agendas of the moderators. Ask the question - shut up. Let the pols do the talking. Let them give and take a bit.

I can't say I support some of the policies of either of these people. But Hillary must be beaten and Bernie's the best chance. For sure the Republican rubbish can't do it.

[Long Run]

But Hillary must be beaten

Why? I am no fan of hers and won't vote for her, but why must she be defeated?

[MajGenl.Meade]

Odious

[Lord Jim]

The good General seems a bit conflicted about Slick Hillie...

In another thread he said this:

LJ, it may be time for a change of heart. Look at that Republican field... (strong stomach, eh?). Now think about Hillary... (very strong stomach)... Isn't she the closest of all candidates to actually being a Republican?

[MajGenl.Meade]

But LJ, that's why she fits so well with the rest of the lineup

[rubato]

Watched it all. Think I'll donate to Bernie's cause. Hillary is so poised and smooth. Makes me sick. It was a wonderful change from the Republican "debates" which have been crap. Trust PBS to put the focus on the candidates and not on the personalities and agendas of the moderators. Ask the question - shut up. Let the pols do the talking. Let them give and take a bit.

I can't say I support some of the policies of either of these people. But Hillary must be beaten and Bernie's the best chance. For sure the Republican rubbish can't do it.

I was able to hear part of it while cooking dinner and ten saw the end on TV after dinner but I'd have to agree that Bernie killed her.


I disagree that she was poised or smooth. I thought her answers were mostly awkward and badly framed compared to the Bern. She really didn't seem very sharp mentally. I was expecting better and she really didn't deliver.


Her defense of Obamacare was foolish, she should have framed it as an improvement and possible stepping stone to national health but instead spoke as if it was an alternative. And she even tried to give herself credit for a wholly failed attempt at HC reform when she was first lady. If you contrast their answers to the question about which domestic and foreign leader they admire and would learn from Bernie give very full answers to both (albeit exactly the ones I predicted to my wife when the question was asked) after which Hillary threw off that she agreed about FDR and then threw out the name of Mandela (a solid and more interesting choice than Winnie) but only gave a weak one sentence comment with no emphasis or energy at all.


Her concession speech in NH was much better so perhaps it was an off night. But if this is her form for the rest of the campaign, she could easily pull defeat from the jaws of victory.


yrs,
rubato

[oldr_n_wsr]

So Bernie wins NH (by a landslide) but ends up with fewer NH delegates. And Hillary got 6 coin flips in a row to go her way in Iowa.
Go figure.

[Crackpot]

The coin flip story is inaccurate

[Econoline]

But Hillary must be beaten

Why? I am no fan of hers and won't vote for her, but why must she be defeated?

Here ya go, LR: All the terrible things Hillary Clinton has done — in one big list!

I hope this helps.

[Long Run]

But Hillary must be beaten

Why? I am no fan of hers and won't vote for her, but why must she be defeated?

Here ya go, LR: All the terrible things Hillary Clinton has done — in one big list!

I hope this helps.

Thanks Econo, that is an awesome list, and some of it is true. Even conceding/assuming she is an awful person, does this mean she is not capable of being a better president than what we've seen for the last 16 years? I guess we need another list for her husband, who was a first rate awful person but had more charm. He was one of the most ethically challenged presidents in history but did a decent to good job (depending on your POV). In theory we can do better -- get competence with some minimal level of character. But you have to deal with what is in front of you, and what we don't need is another term with an almost certainly incompetent POTUS (that would be Sanders, in case anyone missed the point).

Factor in that the media is telling us there is a good probability she may face another awful person in Trump or Cruz, and it kind of neutralizes the whole awful person argument.

[Lord Jim]

So Bernie wins NH (by a landslide) but ends up with fewer NH delegates.

The last I heard, Sanders had won 15 delegates, and Clinton had won 8 but she had 15 NH delegates because seven of eight New Hampshire "super delegates" have already declared for her...

Superdelegates at center of Democratic nomination fight again

After Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders beat former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in New Hampshire by 22 percent and emerged with the exact same number of delegates, some of Sanders’ supporters cried foul and accused the Democratic Party’s establishment of going against the will of the people.

Liberal group MoveOn started a petition protesting the Democrat’s primary process.

“Democracy only works when the votes of the people - not the decision of a small number of elites - are what determines the outcome of elections,” the petition says.

This is also an instance of history repeating itself. But first, an explanation:

The primary process is a race for delegates and – on the Democratic side – superdelegates. Of the 2,382 delegates needed to win the nomination, most are obtained in the primary voting or caucus process. But 712 of the delegates are superdelegates, and they are from the party establishment. They consist of governors, senators, members of the House, members of the Democratic National Committee and former presidents. They can choose whichever candidate they like.[there are a number of other former office holders besides Presidents, and former cabinet secretaries and some state officials as well]

Clinton has done her due diligence and racked up nearly half of the superdelegates in many states that have yet to cast votes. She has 359 to Sanders’ eight superdelegates, according to NBC News estimates.

Liberal Russ Belville wrote about the process. “In other words, one vote from these one-percenters for the Wall Street candidate is worth 10,105 votes from the 99-percenters for the Democratic Socialist candidate,” he wrote in the blog post.

“This process is undemocratic and fundamentally unfair to Democratic primary voters,” the MoveOn petition said.

Hours after the petition’s release, MoveOn reached their goal of collecting 75,000 signatures and are approaching 145,000 signatories as of 6:00 p.m. EST.

MoveOn launched a similar petition in 2008 when Clinton also ran up the score on superdelegates before any votes were cast.

Clinton, who was expected to win the nomination early in that race, had won the support of 169 of 796 superdelegates available in December of 2007, more than any other candidate in the race. Then-Senator Barack Obama had the second most with 63, according to the Associated Press.

Obama complained of the process in 2008 when he was losing the superdelegate race.

“My strong belief is that if we end up with the most states and the most pledged delegates from the most voters in the country, that it would be problematic for the political insiders to overturn the judgment of the voters,” he said, according to the New York Times.

The superdelegates became part of the Democratic nominating process in 1982 to ensure the Democratic party has input on who the nominee is. They wanted to prevent another election like 1972’s when George McGovern won the Democratic nomination, but lost every state minus one.

Ironically, Tad Devine, Sanders’ top adviser, who was instrumental in the creation of the superdelegate process, defended their existance.

“It’s pretty hard to win a nomination in a contested race and almost impossible to win without the superdelegeates,” Devine said in 2008 in an interview on NPR.

Now, Devine’s boss, who is running on an anti-establishment message, is losing the superdelegate race.

Of course, superdelegates are not bound and can switch their allegiance like many did in 2008 once it became clear that Obama was going to be the Democratic nominee.

Ben Wikler, Washington Director of MoveOn said that the next stage of the protest is to start petitions targeting each individual superdelegate.

“Superdelegates should support the people’s choice,” he told NBC News.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/superdelegat ... ight-again

If Sanders wins the majority of elected delegates but loses the nomination because the Supes overwhelmingly support Clinton, the Democratic Convention will be a very ugly affair, and the Sanders folks will not be happy campers...

Not that I would ever be hoping for anything like that of course...

[Gob]

Your system is nuts.

[Lord Jim]

Your system is nuts.

Imagine my shock when I saw you had responded in this thread and discovered that is what you had posted...

[MajGenl.Meade]

Your system is nuts.

That is uncalled for and absolutely wrong

Our nuts are the system

[BoSoxGal]

(applies to two above posts, very clever guys!)


I just watched the debate; I am fantastically impressed with Senator Sanders!

Hillary did her best and did well, but I think he definitely showed her up as the lesser candidate.

She really hit a sour note with that stunt glossing over the 'which leaders from history do you admire' question to instead launch an attack on Sanders for expressing disappointment in Obama on occasion.

A number of her responses were hollow and she simply can't shake the taint of her incestuous relationship with Wall Street, IMHO.

Bernie's tribute to FDR throughout the debate, his opening and closing statements - I could not be more impressed with this socialist Jew and I want him to be my President! I hope all Americans who like him share his stuff with undecided voters and converse with their neighbors and friends about his candidacy - I think we can make a revolution happen in 2016, if we want it.

[rubato]

My problems with Bernie are:

1) Electability

and

2) He has good ideas but no practical way to make them work.


As to #1 I think his electability is improving steadily and perhaps we can dismiss the voters who will never vote for someone who called himself a socialist just as we could dismiss the Republican racists who would never vote for a black man. And Bernie's supporters have a lot of enthusiasm.

As to #2 I don't see that he has anything.

My concern is that Bernie's supporters will expect more and get even less than Obama's supporters did. 4 more years of Republican "let's fuck up the country and blame it on someone else" will pass and all that enthusiasm will evaporate faster than water in the California desert. But you never know.


yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

And you honestly think Hillary will deliver anything different with a republican Congress? She's a pretty polarizing figure even at the mention of her name.

[TPFKA@W]

I have never liked her. Never. There isn't even a particular reason.

I will vote for Bernie if he will promise to say, "Hey Ant" at least once during every State of the Union address. I like him though not so much his politics.