Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

All the shit that doesn't fit!
If it doesn't go into the other forums, stick it in here.
A general free for all
User avatar
Joe Guy
Posts: 15472
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:40 pm
Location: Redweird City, California

Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by Joe Guy »

To David Chang, the 'ethnic' food aisle is racist. Others say it's convenient.
Tim Carman, The Washington Post

To millions of shoppers, the supermarket is just a place to stock up on produce and pantry staples to keep the family fed. But to others, especially children of immigrants who may already feel pushed to the margins of the American mainstream, the supermarket can be just another place to experience the sting of their outsider status.

The sting occurs whenever they walk down the "ethnic" food aisle, the section of the supermarket that, to some, plays out like a remnant of the Jim Crow era, when laws established separate facilities for African Americans in the post-Reconstruction South. Sometimes known as the "international" food aisle, or even "Asian" and "Latino" aisles, these rows can come across to the shoppers they seemingly target as de facto segregation, another kind of "separate but equal" policy that marginalized African Americans for generations.

"If you go to the ethnic food aisle, that is sort of the last bastion of racism that you can see in full daylight in retail America," David Chang, the man at the helm of the Momofuku empire, said on his podcast this summer. "It is something that's got to go."

In a telephone interview, Chang says there is an "invisible ceiling" on some supermarket items: Italian products that were once marginalized, such as olive oils and vinegars, are now routinely integrated into grocery store aisles, while Chinese, Japanese and Latino foods remain stuck in their own sections. The ongoing segregation of these foods, Chang says, isn't about acceptance among the mainstream. Asian and Latino cuisines have long been embraced by Americans of every stripe, he says. You can sometimes even see this acceptance play out in supermarkets: Instant ramen and tortilla soups may sit right next to boxes of chicken noodle and cream of chicken soups, those standards of mid-century America. Same for the produce section, where plantains and mangoes will be sold in the same area as apples and iceberg lettuce.

Yet in supermarkets there are still aisles dedicated to soy sauce, duck sauce, oyster sauce, rice vinegar, coconut milk, rice crackers, stir-fry sauces, yum yum sauce, curry paste, corn flours, adobo seasoning, bagged tortillas, refried beans, salsas and hundreds of other products connected, sometimes tenuously, to Asian and Latin American countries.

"All the foods in the ethnic food aisle are already accepted. So why do we even have them?" Chang asks. The aisles, he adds, are an echo of "1950s America, which was not a particularly good place to be, especially if you were Asian."

To Chang's way of thinking, these aisles continue to exist because nobody wants to talk about them, which was certainly true about the publicists I contacted for this story. Representatives of Whole Foods Market, Giant Food, Kroger, Albertsons (which includes Safeway stores) and Harris Teeter either declined to comment or did not return multiple phone calls for comment.

Phil Lempert is not connected to any supermarket chain. He's the founder of supermarketguru.com, an independent source of food retail trends and industry analysis. He has also been the food trends editor for NBC's "Today" show since the early 1990s. He knows a lot about how supermarkets operate, past and present.

Grocery stores began devoting shelf space to international products around the 1950s, Lempert says. The push came from independent distributors, known as rack jobbers, that specialized in foods then considered outside the American mainstream - Chinese, Jewish, Italian or of another origin - and were searching for places to sell them. Early on, rack jobbers would be responsible for their specific section of a store: They would stock the shelf, maintain its appearance and restock it as necessary.

"It was the beginning of the store within a store, but this was a shelf within a shelf," Lempert says.

Not all international food aisles are the same, experts say. They vary dramatically depending on the supermarket's location and the demographics of that neighborhood. Some aisles dedicated to Hispanic or Chinese products may not even be catering to shoppers from those cultures. The shelves packed with prepackaged stir-fry sauces and instant miso soups? They are not targeting cooks who know their way around a Chinese or Japanese kitchen. Ditto for those many jars of Old El Paso and Pace picante sauces. They are not meant for abuela's homemade tacos. These and countless other items are intended for white shoppers who want to dabble in international cuisines. Lempert compares these kind of white-focused international aisles to the new Impossible Whopper at Burger King. The mock-meat hamburger is not designed for vegans, he says. It's for flexitarians who want a break from meat.

From the beginning, however, the products from Goya Foods were intended for the Latin American market, says Joseph Perez, senior vice president of the Hispanic-owned company, which is based in New Jersey. Perez can attest to the racist underpinnings of the first "ethnic" food aisles at supermarkets. As cities began to swell with immigrants from Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean, major supermarkets started to take an interest in Goya products, which had mainly been relegated to bodegas and other small grocers, he says. But supermarket managers assigned Goya the shelves in the rear of the store, by the back exit or near the warehouse doors.

"They didn't want the clientele in their stores," Perez says. Or at least in the part of the store trafficked by white shoppers. "David Chang was not off the mark."

Whatever their intentions, these international food aisles had an impact on Chang as he grew up in northern Virginia. He remembers his parents shopping at two grocery stores - one that specialized in Korean foods, and the other a supermarket with "ethnic" food aisles - and the memories were imprinted on his brain at an early age. The two stores, the separate aisles dedicated to international foods, his food: They were a reminder to an impressionable Chang that he was different from white America.

"We were always going to be different," Chang said he remembers thinking. "We were never going to be accepted."

Chang's take is by no means universal. Krishnendu Ray, a New York University associate professor of food studies and the author of "The Ethnic Restaurateur," says he is not bothered by international food aisles. A first-generation immigrant from the Indian state of Odisha, Ray doesn't find these aisles insulting, humiliating or even necessarily segregating. He mainly finds them intriguing. His interest, he acknowledges, is largely academic. He wants to see how the American mainstream packages and sells food designated as Indian or Mexican or some other international cuisine. But Ray says his perspective would probably be different if he, like Chang, were the child of immigrants. A child whose food was mocked by peers at school. A child who constantly tried to merge into the mainstream but encountered roadblocks.

"The way I react to it would be very different from a second-generation American, a child of an immigrant," Ray says. "I think that David's perspective is very attuned to the second-generation children of immigrants who have this sense of being identified, cornered, considered inferior."

Those who own and operate grocery stores, or used to, say that international food aisles have nothing to do with segregation - and everything to do with sales and convenience.

Jay Rosengarten, co-founder of the Food Emporium chain, the first grocery stores to mix regular and specialty items on the same shelves, says that supermarkets in predominantly white neighborhoods operate more efficiently when they offer international products all in the same area. The rationale is simple, he notes: Customers don't want to search all over the supermarket - a massive space that can hold upward of 42,000 items - just for the handful of ingredients they might need to prepare, for example, Mexican enchiladas. They can pick up the tortillas, the seasoning blend and the salsa all in the same aisle.

These aisles don't have "anything to do with racism," Rosengarten says. "It has everything to do with the way people buy food. That's the way stores are organized."

Plus, as Goya's Perez points out, absorbing international foods into the larger supermarket ecosystem can hurt the sales of those products. A few years ago, when William Rodriguez was building a new Billy's Market Place in Ridgewood, New York, he considered ditching the international food aisle and integrating the Latino, Chinese, Indian and other products into the standard supermarket shelves. But he was discouraged from doing so - by some of the very companies that supply these foods. In the past, supermarkets that attempted such integration saw their sales drop on international products, says Rodriguez, who is also president of the National Supermarket Association. Shoppers apparently buy more of the same foods when they are lumped together, which is good for both supermarket and supplier.

International aisles are "extremely profitable," adds Perez. "It generates more dollars per food [product] by having it consolidated."

But more to the point, Perez says, the battle for hearts and minds has already been won. Over the decades, supermarkets have expanded their stock of international foods. Items that, back in the 1960s and 1970s, occupied just a few shelves by the dock doors have multiplied many times over and now consume whole aisles. These foods generate foot traffic into supermarkets, which see the fringe benefit of sales in other departments. The increased visibility for these foods is a statement in itself, Perez says.

An aisle that, to David Chang, looks like an ugly remnant of segregation is, in fact, something else altogether, Perez says. It's a destination.
source

I went into an Asian Supermarket the other day and asked where the Hispanic food aisle is located. The man laughed and made me feel like I was less of a person than he. I cried and I will never get over it.

Big RR
Posts: 14932
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:47 pm

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by Big RR »

David Chang, the man at the helm of the Momofuku empire
Momofuku? I could have sworn it was a joke. But there is a pretty well recommended restaurant in NYC by that name.

I have no idea what the name means, butI recall when I lived near Fort Monmouth in NJ there was a Chinese restaurant right outside called Fuku; the people answered the phone "Fuck you" and it apparently was a hit with those stationed at the fort. It doesn't appear that this restaurant is chasing a similar clientele, but it brought back that recollection.

It seems to me that all he is trying to do is get some more attention.

User avatar
Scooter
Posts: 17318
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:04 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by Scooter »

I don't know; if only from a practical standpoint, it seems only logical to question why such disparate products are grouped together, rather than located with their more "mainstream" counterparts. And if the reason is that they are seen to be the "exotic other", then that is an assumption open to challenge, no?
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell

User avatar
Joe Guy
Posts: 15472
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:40 pm
Location: Redweird City, California

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by Joe Guy »

Most grocery stores stock what sells the most in the area they're located. If they started integrating all of the "ethnic" groceries at Safeway, it would probably take me all day to find Chun King Chow Mein and Chop Suey.

Image


(edited to change ethic to ethnic)
Last edited by Joe Guy on Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Big RR
Posts: 14932
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:47 pm

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by Big RR »

I don't know; I know in many supermarkets by me we have hispanic sections due to the large hispanic population, while Asian, Indian, and other foods particular to one or a few groups are placed in the same aisle for convenience. In other areas where there is a large Indian population, this is often different, and there is an Indian foods aisle; likewise, many traditional Jewish foods get their own aisle around the major Jewish holidays. Personally, I think it makes it easier to shop.

I find the same thing in wine stores--there are multiple French and American aisle, some stores emphasize Australian wines and have an Australian aisle, others separate Chilean and Argentinian aisles, still others have Kosher wine aisles, all others are placed in a separate section called "others" (sometimes other Reds and Other Whites). No disrespect or "exoticness" implied, just a convenient division). I've seen it with beers as well--the sections differ on the tastes of the patrons with the rest combined into "others".

Personally, if I am looking for a particular Chinese or Indian spice, I'd rather look in an ethnic foods aisle to find it rather than guess where a store wanted to put it.

Joe, almost cross posted. I agree.

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 20167
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by BoSoxGal »

Nonsense; there is no reason for segregation in the grocery store and of course said segregation implies that certain cuisine is standard or mainstream while others are alternative or exotic.

Put spices in the spice section, sauces in the sauces section, etc. It’s ridiculous that some of the navy beans live in the beans section and others (the better quality ones) live with the Goya products in the ethnic foods section.

Honestly these posts lately just display a real generational and attitudinal divide in this community. I cannot fathom how anyone could get his shorts in a twist over something as innocuous as a proposition to organize the grocery store in the most logical way which has a resulting effect of removing a source of discomfort for one’s neighbors. How can you be so emotionally stuck that THIS is what makes you righteously angry? :shrug

:roll: :loon

This community is clearly old, mostly white and largely privileged. (I expect it is in fact 100% those things, at least the active posters - and it really shows.)
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

User avatar
Scooter
Posts: 17318
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:04 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by Scooter »

Maybe it's just me, but if I were looking for a Chinese or Indian spice, I would think it would be with other spices, rather than somewhere between the taco shells and the matzo meal.

(realized after the fact that BSG expressed the same thing more eloquently)
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell

User avatar
Long Run
Posts: 6723
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:47 pm

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by Long Run »

I assume the stores know what they are doing in terms of providing the best service for the larger part of their customers.* For example, I do not cook east Asian food very often, which puts me in the large part of the bell curve in my area, so it is helpful to have all of the Asian sauces, spices and foods in one place, rather than have me aimlessly looking through the store for these various things. Now, if the stores would just decide where they are going to stock canned olives . . .

*And, indeed, there is a whole science to this -- a good read is Why We Buy (focused more on retail than grocery but still a good overview of how to improve the shopping experience):
Image

User avatar
dales
Posts: 10922
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:13 am
Location: SF Bay Area - NORTH California - USA

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by dales »

How about a "queer food aisle"?

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

User avatar
RayThom
Posts: 8604
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:38 pm
Location: Longwood Gardens PA 19348

Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by RayThom »

The local Walmart has a "Mexican Food" aisle. It appears to have many items but I avoid it whenever I shop there.

Some of the customers, I assume, are good people but It's apparent that others are bringing drugs, and they're bringing crime, and they're rapists shopping in that aisle and I want no part of it.

Walmart should put some kind of a barrier around that section and, you know, if they go out and want to buy groceries there, they should have a picture on a card, they need ID.
Image
“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.” 

User avatar
Long Run
Posts: 6723
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:47 pm

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by Long Run »

Big RR wrote: I have no idea what the name means, but I recall when I lived near Fort Monmouth in NJ there was a Chinese restaurant right outside called Fuku; the people answered the phone "Fuck you" and it apparently was a hit with those stationed at the fort. It doesn't appear that this restaurant is chasing a similar clientele, but it brought back that recollection.
If someone tells you to go f*** yourself, you might buy a ticket here:

Image

User avatar
Joe Guy
Posts: 15472
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:40 pm
Location: Redweird City, California

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by Joe Guy »

BoSoxGal wrote:Honestly these posts lately just display a real generational and attitudinal divide in this community. I cannot fathom how anyone could get his shorts in a twist over something as innocuous as a proposition to organize the grocery store in the most logical way which has a resulting effect of removing a source of discomfort for one’s neighbors. How can you be so emotionally stuck that THIS is what makes you righteously angry?
The person with shorts in a twist is the one who says a certain aisle in a grocery store is racist.

Without an international foods aisle where would I find gefilte fish in a jar? Chinese noodles? Escargot in a can? Picante sauce that ain't made in New York City?

MGMcAnick
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:01 pm
Location: 12 NM from ICT @ 010º

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by MGMcAnick »

RayThom wrote:The local Walmart has a "Mexican Food" aisle. It appears to have many items but I avoid it whenever I shop there.

Some of the customers, I assume, are good people but It's apparent that others are bringing drugs, and they're bringing crime, and they're rapists shopping in that aisle and I want no part of it.

Walmart should put some kind of a barrier around that section and, you know, if they go out and want to buy groceries there, they should have a picture on a card, they need ID.
WalMart has an app that will locate any item in their stores. The aisles are identified by letter and number. You can even use their WiFi. All you need is location turned on on your phone so it knows which Wally World you're in. That way you can avoid all the druggie rapists in the Mexican food aisle if you want to. (You might see me there too, and I'm not even Hispanic.)

Ricotta cheese, which was not of Saturday's grocery list, was in section A35 when Mrs Mc's lasagna was already in progress yesterday. So we ate 20 minutes late.
A friend of Doc's, one of only two B-29 bombers still flying.

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 20167
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by BoSoxGal »

Salsas all in the same section, gefilte fish in jars with all the other jarred/canned meats, Chinese noodles with every other kind of pasta, etc.

You’re not that stupid Joe; you’re just a horse’s ass.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

User avatar
Joe Guy
Posts: 15472
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:40 pm
Location: Redweird City, California

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by Joe Guy »

I never thought of it before today but I guess I prefer grocery stores with racist aisles. They're much more old white guy friendly than a grocery store that has a mandatory integrated food display policy.

Another problem I see is that grocery stores aren't short-people friendly. I can't tell you how many times I've had to assist short women to help them to get top shelf food. Worse yet, a few times I've heard, "Clean up on Aisle Five" on the PA system and I looked to see some vertically challenged person laying on the floor in a puddle of food and apologizing for having attempted to climb up shelves and knocking glass food containers on to the floor and shattering them.

Shopping at grocery stores is a real challenge for some people.

ex-khobar Andy
Posts: 5841
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:16 am
Location: Louisville KY as of July 2018

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Well I'm ethnic and I quite like the section in my supermarket where I can find the Marmite next to the chocolate digestives and the Liquorice Allsorts and the kippers. The still don't sell haggises but we are ever hopeful that the ban will be lifted.

I didn't realize I was supporting racism. If the supermarket is being racist, what about the Patel Brothers' store down the road? It's the only place I can get curry leaves and decent hot lime pickle. Can I still go there? I don't want to contemplate a future without hot lime pickle.

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21504
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

I long for a chubby old white guy aisle - saves hunting around for cheap chardonnay, chocolate digestives, sjamboks and other essentials.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

Big RR
Posts: 14932
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:47 pm

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by Big RR »

I cannot fathom how anyone could get his shorts in a twist over something as innocuous as a proposition to organize the grocery store in the most logical way which has a resulting effect of removing a source of discomfort for one’s neighbors. How can you be so emotionally stuck that THIS is what makes you righteously angry? :shrug
Righteously angry? i haven't seen that among anyone here; I know it certainly doesn't rise to anywhere near that level for me. I just happen to think organizing the store in the way you suggest is not the most logical way, and i am incredulous that anyone would experience "discomfort" from the mere location of a particular ethnic (for want of a better word) item on a shelf. But no matter, if they locate all the spices in the same mega aisle and I want a particular Indian spice, I will forego getting it at the supermarket and pick it up at the local Indian store, where it will be much easier to locate (especially if I am unsure of the spelling). And I'll keep on getting Chilean or Italian (or ...) wines from the Chilean, etc. wine section of my favorite wine store, where I can easily locate and pick out the wines I want (makes a lot more sense than putting all the wines together in a single shelf and letting everyone having to search through them all).

ex-khobar Andy
Posts: 5841
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:16 am
Location: Louisville KY as of July 2018

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:I long for a chubby old white guy aisle - saves hunting around for cheap chardonnay, chocolate digestives, sjamboks and other essentials.
The sjamboks will usually be by the whipping cream.

User avatar
RayThom
Posts: 8604
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:38 pm
Location: Longwood Gardens PA 19348

Re: Grocery Stores Are Racist and Offend Me

Post by RayThom »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:I long for a chubby old white guy aisle - saves hunting around for cheap chardonnay, chocolate digestives, sjamboks and other essentials.
Sjamboks... hide or plastic? The longer ones are usually found in the hardware aisle.
Image
“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.” 

Post Reply