Looking a gift horse in the mouth

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Scooter
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Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by Scooter »

The governments of Canada and Ontario have been trying for decades to reach an agreement with the state of Michigan on the buiding of a new bridge between Windsor and Detroit. One of the advantages of the new bridge would be that it would be accessible directly from the main east-west highway running through southern Ontario and the interstate in Detroit, and so would not require cross-border traffic to clog up city streets on both sides of the border, as it does now. Manny Maroun, the owner of the existing Ambassador Bridge, has used his money and connections to waylay the project at every turn, including buying key politicians in Lansing to reject any sort of agreement. The governor of Michigan has finally succeeded in outsmarting bridge opponents, by entering into an agreement whereby Michigan would not have to front any money for a bridge, thereby freeing him from the need to go to the legislature for an appropriation).

The provisions of the agreement could not possibly be more favourable to Michigan: the Canadian government will front the estimated $550 million to expropriate the necessary land and build the approaches to the bridge on the Michigan side. Tolls will be used for approximately the first 40 years to cover the costs of construction and the government of Canada's contribution, thereafter toll revenue will be split 50-50 between Canada and Michigan. The authority in charge of construction and operation of the bridge will be headed by three members from Michigan and three from Canada, in spite of the lopsided financial arrangement. There will be an estimated 6000 jobs created in Michigan in each year of bridge construction, plus about 1200 when the bridge begins operation. Additionally, the $550 million infusion qualifies the state for $2.2 billion in federal transportation grants, which the state will be able to apply to other needed projects (and create jobs).

And yet, for some folks being able to have their cake and eat it too is not enough. One can understand Maroun's opposition; indeed he has as much said that he will use some of his billions to mount a court challenge, and has initiated a petition drive to amend the state constitution to require a referendum prior to the building of an international bridge or tunnel (bad wording means that it would require such a referendum for the building of any bridge or tunnel, but leaving that aside...) What has amazed me is how Maroun has been able to convince hundreds of thousands of Michiganders to sign his petition by convincing them that, in spite of getting something for nothing, they are going to get screwed regardless. Overblown distrust of government is eating away at your country like a cancer. If a gift such as this manages to generate such opposition, what will be the fate of desperately needed infrastructure projects that government actually has to pay for?

Look forward to the ascendence of the Tea Party making it completely impossible to maintain infrastructure.
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell

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Gob
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by Gob »

Scooter wrote: What has amazed me is how Maroun has been able to convince hundreds of thousands of Michiganders to sign his petition by convincing them that, in spite of getting something for nothing, they are going to get screwed regardless.
Ok, got any examples of how he's managed this?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Crackpot
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by Crackpot »

Buying Pols, smear campaigns, obstructionism in any manner including landing himself in jail for contempt of court.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Crackpot
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by Crackpot »

I forgot Bougus court challenges
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Scooter
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by Scooter »

Gob wrote:
Scooter wrote: What has amazed me is how Maroun has been able to convince hundreds of thousands of Michiganders to sign his petition by convincing them that, in spite of getting something for nothing, they are going to get screwed regardless.
Ok, got any examples of how he's managed this?
One of the ways he has done it is by misrepresenting the thrust of the petition. People are being stopped on the street and asked to sign a petition to stop pollution of the Detroit River, and other such nonsense, in order to induce them to sign.
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell

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Gob
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by Gob »

ROTFLMCO!! That's good! Do they not have a press worthy of the name there?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Scooter
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by Scooter »

Actually from what I can tell the Detroit Free Press, at least, has been pretty good at covering this and exposing the absurdities and corruption. Why people don't seem to care, I don't know.
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell

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Gob
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by Gob »

To quote Roy Harper...

Well you can lead a horse to water
But you're never gonna make him drink
And you can lead a man to slaughter
But you're never gonna make him think
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Scooter
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by Scooter »

A good DFP editorial on the subject:
No one can say when a new bridge over the Detroit River will open for traffic, but one thing seems clear in the wake of Friday's landmark agreement between Gov. Rick Snyder and Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper:

Canada believes in Michigan's future more than most Michiganders do.

Why else would the Canadian government agree to front all of the money, and incur all of the risk, to build a bridge that seems likely to boost Michigan's economic prospects as much as Ontario's?

Why else would Harper pledge more than half a billion dollars to pay for road improvements that will be made wholly in our state -- literally free money that Michigan can then use to draw down matching federal highway funds to pay for other Michigan road projects? (It's as if the P.M. is buying our state a first-class ticket and throwing in the frequent flyer points.)

Canadians are convinced they can pay Michigan's share of the bridge project and still come out ahead.

Is Ottawa being overly optimistic about the benefits likely to flow from a streamlined border crossing between Windsor and Detroit? Or have Michigan and its largest city simply been down for so long that any light at the end of the tunnel looks like a freight train?

The overwhelming evidence is that vision is being distorted by self-doubt on the American side of the border -- and that it's our elected representatives in Lansing who are undervaluing our competitive advantages.

It's not as though the Canadians have access to secret data Michigan lawmakers lack. Gov. Rick Snyder, his predecessors in both parties, and business and labor leaders have spent years making the same case to state legislators their counterparts across the border have been making:

That the trading relationship between the United States and Canada is the most important on the planet.

That the Detroit-Windsor nexus is the busiest border crossing on the continent.

That one in eight Michigan jobs -- one in seven in the state's southeast region -- depends on the uninterrupted flow of cargo between the two countries.

That building a new span directly beside the existing Ambassador Bridge, or waiting until traffic chokes the existing border crossing options to build a public bridge downriver, poses a mortal threat to all of that.

But Harper's government has been more successful at convincing Canadians that a new, publicly owned bridge is the key to commercial opportunities far beyond Michigan and Ontario.

Where Michiganders myopically see their state as destination of limited interest to a limited number of industries, Canadians see it as the critical link in a sprawling network connecting a much larger universe of trading partners.

In Ottawa's view, widening the pipeline between Detroit and Windsor will expedite the flow of goods not just between Canada and the U.S., but between Asia and Mexico, or Europe and Latin America.

Most of the public bridge's proponents, including this newspaper's editorial page, blame Ambassador Bridge owner Manuel (Matty) Moroun for spending millions to broadcast disinformation about the downriver initiative and purchase the opposition of key lawmakers in both the Legislature and Congress.

But Moroun's campaign wouldn't have been nearly as effective if many Michiganders weren't already suspicious of government in general, and especially government initiatives to promote international trade.

Manufacturing workers have been brutalized by the forces of globalization for so long that they've forgotten their state has anything positive to offer prospective employers.

Since 2010, when they won both the governor's mansion and comfortable majorities in both houses of the Legislature, Republicans have reinforced this inferiority complex by insisting that only the promise of lower taxes can attract job providers or job seekers to Michigan. As recently as this week, GOP lawmakers rejected calls for increased investment in roads or higher education in favor of an income tax cut that will save most Michigan wage-earners less than $5 a month.

But even some Republican legislative leaders are beginning to see the diminishing returns in a race to the bottom. Last week, Senate Appropriations Chair Roger Kahn, R-Saginaw, warned that House lawmakers who want to mandate even further reductions in the income tax rate are jeopardizing vital services employers depend on.

"What job providers want is low taxes," Kahn conceded in an interview with the Michigan Information and Research Service. "But the next items they want are roads. They want public safety, they want schools, and they want symphonies and museums. And those are paid for by taxes."

Kahn has recognized the same thing that Canadians who've pledged public money to support construction of a new bridge know -- that remaining competitive requires balancing the desire for low prices with the demand for quality products.

Canada's willingness to subsidize Michigan's share of the bridge reminds us how much value our state derives just from being where it is -- on a strategically located peninsula adjacent to our nation's most important trading partner.

But fully exploiting that geographical advantage will ultimately require Michiganders, and especially their elected representatives, to re-appraise their state's importance as a vital international crossroads worthy of their own public investment.

In the long run, we can't prosper if we secretly suspect that any risk outsiders underwrite on our behalf is a sucker's bet.
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell

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Crackpot
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

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Mostly because Maroun has enough money and enough political clout to keep it tied up regardless of public opinion. Just buy alot of pols from districts on the other parts of the state the ones that are least likely to see a direct benefit or political backlash and you can fuck the system quite well.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Gob
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by Gob »

That the trading relationship between the United States and Canada is the most important on the planet.
Oh dear.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Scooter
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by Scooter »

Considering it has THE largest value of any bilateral trading relationship in the world, why do you take exception to that statement?
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell

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Gob
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by Gob »

Largest does not mean most important.

The trading relationship between the starving man and the aid worker may be more important to him.

It may be the most important to the USA and Canada.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by BoSoxGal »

Americans are stupid.

Scooter, it's time to find me a Canadian husband/wife. I want to grow old in a place where reason reigns.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Scooter
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by Scooter »

Gob wrote:Largest does not mean most important.
But it is certainly ONE way of assessing which is most important.

And the fact that Canada is the largest supplier of energy that keeps the economy of the U.S., and therefore of the world, running, it takes on importance for that reason as well.
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell

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Crackpot
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

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The article completely misses the tone of the area and of the state. The state parties are broken and sold to the highest bidder. it should tell you something that the governor has to go around his own party to get things done.

Part of the problem is apathy among the electorate as far as state issues go most (myself included) couldn't tell you their state rep or senator we tend to hang it all on the Governor which is unfair to him and allows our state legislature to run rampant with corruption (ethically if not legally).

From My experience Most want the new bridge and the increased commerce that goes with it and those that don't usually come around once they are shown the way through the mountainous Maroun propaganda.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Crackpot
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by Crackpot »

Scooter wrote:
Gob wrote:Largest does not mean most important.
But it is certainly ONE way of assessing which is most important.

And the fact that Canada is the largest supplier of energy that keeps the economy of the U.S., and therefore of the world, running, it takes on importance for that reason as well.
But to be fair that energy doesn't now nor will if flow over the new border crossing.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Crackpot
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by Crackpot »

Oh BSG you wouldn't be able to stand the damned politeness.

It's freaking unsettling!
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by BoSoxGal »

I could keep visiting here for my daily does of contrariness - just like Scoot does. :D
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

rubato
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Re: Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Post by rubato »

A rich and pungent example of how badly democratic government can be perverted by the application of large amounts of money from the corrupt.

Similar to the outcome of the $1 per pack cigarette tax initiative in Calif.

yrs,
rubato

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