In the beginning ...

All things philosophical, related to belief and / or religions of any and all sorts.
Personal philosophy welcomed.
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dales
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by dales »

C/P posted:
The problem is we are applying time to a being that exists outside of time. It's like describing a 3rd dimension only using linear geometry it can't be done.
He is the alpha and the omega, there is no beginning and there is no end to His reign.

To place the human constuct of time/space is futile.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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oldr_n_wsr
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

To place the human constuct of time/space is futile.
So is "resistance".

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Sue U
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by Sue U »

I have tried for years, but I really don't get this whole obsession with God and his/her/its attendant powers. I honestly cannot understand why the omniscience or omnipotence of a God or even the existence of a God is of any actual consequence to anyone. I'm not trying to pick a fight over these questions, I'm just trying to understand why it seems to be so important to people.

I have asked these questions before at the other place, and having gotten not much of a response (except a rather confusing one from Big RR) I ask them again here, very seriously:

Why do you need a God?

Why does a God need you?

What difference does it make whether there is or isn't a God? If you knew for a certainty one way or the other, what would change? Why?
GAH!

oldr_n_wsr
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Ok I'll bite (as an agnostic)
Why do you need a God?
I personally don't need a God, but some do.
Why does a God need you?
gods (notice lower case) need "subjects". Without "subjects" (aka those lesser than they are) they cease to be gods.
What difference does it make whether there is or isn't a God? If you knew for a certainty one way or the other, what would change? Why?
Well, I am sure that if we were to travel back through time, and brought all our wizz bang inventions back to ancient Egypt or even before that, we would be hailed as gods. You know where I am leading, but out of time now so I'll leave with that thought.

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Sue U
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by Sue U »

I'm not interested in abstractions or science fiction, oldr. I'm interested in personal answers that are thought through and complete. But based on your initial response, if you don't need a god, would it make a difference to you if you knew there was one? Why?
GAH!

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Sean
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by Sean »

Why do you need a God?
Personally, I don't feel the need for one so I hope you don't Sue if I try to answer this in more general terms. Many people use God as a focus. It's easier for some to be able to put the blame on 'God's Will' as they can't handle the concept of random events happening in a random universe. These are the same type of people who, when something goes wrong look for somebody to blame before they look for a solution.
Why does a God need you?
The only reasons I can think of are either a God sized ego that needs stroking or a God who indeed plays dice with the universe.
What difference does it make whether there is or isn't a God? If you knew for a certainty one way or the other, what would change? Why?
To me it would make no difference. I imagine if faced with indisputable proof of God's existence today I think I would probably say, "That's nice" and carry on with my life. I certainly wouldn't feel the need to suddenly start kow-towing because he says so.

The more I think about it the more I wonder why people would ever want this "Worship me or feel my wrath!" being to exist at all. It'd be like giving Kim Jong-Il thunderbolts... :|


As a side-bar I've always wondered how so many people who believe in complete free will also believe in astrology...
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

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loCAtek
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by loCAtek »

Sue U wrote: Why do you need a God?
Day to day life of paying the bills and walking the dog doesn't need a God to continue. ...but there is more to life than that, some people are aware of that. When you become aware of spirituality, it's not so much what 'you need' it's the awareness that everything is interconnected and we all need other in life and in death*. Spirituality and God is realizing your contribution is loved unconditionally, and you are not judged by how much you need, or by how much other's need you.
Sue U wrote: Why does a God need you?

What difference does it make whether there is or isn't a God? If you knew for a certainty one way or the other, what would change? Why?
People don't need children. Early man didn't know where children came from, but when they were born, it wasn't because parents needed them per se. However, mothers and fathers give as much love as they can; even it doesn't support a personal need.
That's as it is with God. God doesn't need us; he loves us unconditionally.

I'm certain there is spirituality in the world. Strangers show love all the time, without any thought of their needs. That is God at work. We are connected to him and feel/show love unconditionally at times. If we all were motivated purely by personal need we wouldn't care about the poor or handicapped since they have nothing we need.

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loCAtek
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by loCAtek »

*In Buddhism, the stages of transition from life to death are known as bardo In that stage, you experience the spiritual realm.

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Rick
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by Rick »

Is knowledge...causal?
Sometimes it seems as though one has to cross the line just to figger out where it is

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dales
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by dales »

God fills a spriritual void in my life that only He can fill.

Nothing even comes close.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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thestoat
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Re: In the beginning ...

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loCAtek wrote:With flying we had to bend some physical laws, with time travel we'd have to break some ...and some big ones at that. Flight is not defying gravity. You can not defy time.
You missed my point. 200 years ago, we thought flying was impossible simply because we didn't have the understanding to make it happen. Possibly the same goes for time travel. I think it unlikely, as I say, but who knows?

We started off being able to navigate in 2 dimensions, then moved to 3. Why not, in the future, move to others? In fact, I would suggest that going forward in time is very much possible to do (eg my popping over to next year but staying almost the same age). It is going backward that causes the problems and paradoxes ...
If a man speaks in the forest and there are no women around to hear is he still wrong?

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thestoat
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Re: In the beginning ...

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Sue U wrote:Why do you need a God?
I don't. My experience is that many that do need a god need one because they equate god with heaven - it is actually the heaven they need so that they can believe that when their life ends they can continue to exist.
Sue U wrote:Why does a God need you?
To have someone to smite, probably.

I agree with oldr and sean's comments ... stroke that ego and without people to believe, the god dies
Sue U wrote:What difference does it make whether there is or isn't a God? If you knew for a certainty one way or the other, what would change? Why?
Very good question. If I knew for certain there wasn't a god I would absolutely change nothing - because I believe there isn't, and would put my certainty quotient at >99%.

If I knew for certain there was I wouldn't change anything anyway. I wouldn't start to go to church because any god who required me to worship them isn't worth worshiping, imho. And I wouldn't change my life. Just like all the believers out there I could easily interpret the bible to fit around, and therefore condone the way I do things.

I don't think believe in a god changes the way most people act day to day (apart maybe from the church going).
If a man speaks in the forest and there are no women around to hear is he still wrong?

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SisterMaryFellatio
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by SisterMaryFellatio »

dales wrote:God fills a spriritual void in my life that only He can fill.

Nothing even comes close.

Dales am not trying to pick a fight but I simply cannot get my head around that statement.
In what way does he fill a void?

What void is there to fill if you are happy and content with your lot?

If Sean told me he had a void that only God could fill i would be upset and angry with him....We chose each other and decided to make a family.We should be enough for him.

Maybe I am coming accross as dumb or just plain ignorant but i really don't get it

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thestoat
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by thestoat »

A bible reading ...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN-8G0HCD5U[/youtube]

Welcome to Hell ...
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC6UrMTC73A[/youtube]
If a man speaks in the forest and there are no women around to hear is he still wrong?

Big RR
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by Big RR »

If Sean told me he had a void that only God could fill i would be upset and angry with him....We chose each other and decided to make a family.We should be enough for him.
Would you also be upset if he said that about one of his parents? Or maybe a close friend? Clearly people fulfill different needs for each of us, which is why we are social creatures. In a way, a god or supreme being would do the same thing. For me, striving to understand god presents me with knowledge/feelings/understandings that i wouldn't otherwise have. It helps me to connect better with others, and to order my life and better appreciate my place in the cosmos. Sure, this is all diffuse and general, but then I cannot write well about such feelings--perhaps some budding poet could. I can't speak for Dales, but I'd bet this is something along the lines of what he meant.

Sue--as for the other questions--I don't need a god anymore than I need a beautiful mountain or a stunning sunset or any other manner of the things that make life worth living; if there were no god, I think I would be poorer, just as i would if none of those foregoing things existed. As for whether god needs me, I don't know why, other than to have a genera understanding that we are al connected and need each other; perhaps as god can provide me with a different perspective, I can provide god with the same. Perhaps god desires a oneness with humans as we do with god. I really can't say.

And that's the point, religion is about faith and feeling; for some the idea that we cease to exist after our 3 score and ten years is spent is enough, for me, I believe we will become part of something greater and achieve greater knowledge.

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dales
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by dales »

SisterMaryFellatio wrote:
dales wrote:God fills a spriritual void in my life that only He can fill.

Nothing even comes close.

Dales am not trying to pick a fight but I simply cannot get my head around that statement.
In what way does he fill a void?

What void is there to fill if you are happy and content with your lot?

If Sean told me he had a void that only God could fill i would be upset and angry with him....We chose each other and decided to make a family.We should be enough for him.

Maybe I am coming accross as dumb or just plain ignorant but i really don't get it
I can only speak from my own experience.

Others may be satisfied with their lot.

I was always searching for something else beyond the material world.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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rubato
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by rubato »

dales wrote:"...
Others may be satisfied with their lot.

I was always searching for something else beyond the material world.

I thought that was why people read fantasy and science fiction books; their real life sucked.


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dales
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by dales »

I wouldn't expect you to understand, rube.

My life did NOT "suck".

I was quite comfortable.

It was an existential quest.

Something which is way beyond your ken.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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rubato
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by rubato »

tch tch tch

Just joshing with you a little here.

I'm very broad-minded on the subject of household deities, personal phobias et al; after all, one man's devotion is another man's OCD. Maybe taking exactly three steps every time you cross the porch really is the key to happiness? Can't prove its not can you? You can worship all the burning shrubs you want to. I won't interfere.

Be Cool.


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Andrew D
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Re: In the beginning ...

Post by Andrew D »

Crackpot wrote:The problem is we are applying time to a being that exists outside of time. It's like describing a 3rd dimension only using linear geometry it can't be done.
No, we are doing no such thing. You evidently would like us to be doing that, because you evidently believe that it provides some sort of solution to the problem. (Although how simply waving the slogan "outside of time" at what you admit to be a paradox resolves that paradox is anything but clear.)

Yet again: The issue here is the possibility of the existence of human free will. Human beings exist and operate in a temporal universe, so if human free will exists at all, it exists and operates in a temporal universe. In the temporal universe in which we exist and operate, God knows what "choices" I will make before I make them. Therefore, the outcome of my supposed "choices" is determined before I make them. That negates the assertion that I have free will.

If you want to discuss issues related to whether God has free will -- as to which God's extratemporality or omnitemporality or both might well be relevant -- feel free to initiate such a conversation. At the moment, however, we are discussing human free will, and God's asserted timelessness (or however one wishes to describe it), being an attribute of God and not an attribute of human beings, tells us essentially nothing about the existence and operation of human free will in a temporal universe.

(By the way, the Bible shows no hesitation in describing God's knowledge as operating in the temporal universe, as in "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee ...." (Jeremiah 1:5.))
Last edited by Andrew D on Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason is valuable only when it performs against the wordless physical background of the universe.

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