What would happen if things had to be named truthfully?

[Gob]

That's not fair! At least Dave comes up with his own bullshit, rube just cut's n'pastes!

[Grim Reaper]

Those days are gone forever. We are cursed with a "world economy" in which such workers are competing against counterparts in parts of the world where $5/hr is a princely wage, and where people EXPECT to work HARD every day, all day, to earn that wage.

And where things like worker safety and child labor laws are scoffed at.

[Lord Jim]

Dave comes up with his own bullshit, rube just cut's n'pastes!

Now that's not fair to rube....

Sometimes he comes up with something quite original....

Like the idea that Britain had a fourth rate navy ever since the American Revolution, the Japanese were planning to declare war prior to Pearl harbor, there was no genocide before Christianity, the defining characteristic of wealth is free time....

etc, etc, etc....

[Gob]

To paraphrase;

"His posts contain information which is good and original."

[Rick]

Oh my! look at the red and blue states during the 80th Congress

[oldr_n_wsr]

And the union is not the government.

No, but if you want that analogy, then the employer is the "government" -- and a dictatorial one at that: the company has the money, and if you want some to survive you will do what it tells you, when it tells you, and for how long it tells you. You as an individual have no choice but to take it or leave it. The employer doesn't give a shit about any individual employee; someone else will be desperate enough to do the job and toe the company line.

Having been laid off twice (and fired once for drinking on the job) I know full well the "power" of the employer. Having worked for one of those I was laid off from for almost 25 years made me full aware of that fact. But still, I would rather bargain for my own "contract" based on my skills than take what the union has already bargained for. When I worked for Motorola they had their own PAC which I refused to "donate" too even after repeated attempts by my boss and others on how I really "should" contribute. I wonder if that had any bearing on my lay off?

At this job they made an offer, I countered and we came to something we both could live with. I know they can get rid of me for any reason or no reason. But then I do have a skill that may be in demand, but might not be in such big a demand as it has been in the past. Such is life. Things change, and we must also. If the union gets too greedy (as I believe the teachers and cops unions have here on LI) the taxpayers cannot support it. I don't deny them and their unions for going after the best deal they can get for the employees, I blame the politico's for basically giving them pretty much all they wanted. Who pays? I/we do. Whith very few prospects in the private sector and unemployment at the level it is, the camels back is breaking. I know there have been some give-backs, but the devil is in the details. The teachers agreed to no raises for 3 years, but "step" increases are still in effect, so in reality, they are getting raises of 3% anyway.

[dgs49]

Note to Keld Feldspar: What does that map have to do with the subject of this thread or discussion?

You apparently thought it was poignant in some way. Please elucidate.

And explain what the percentages refer to - total congressional composition (rep & Sen)? What?

[Guinevere]

Once again, Dave ignores real life examples and facts from people who are actually enagaged in the professional work of bargaining with unions for employers, as well as running arbitrations and other types of litigation with unions and their employees, for his skewed and unrealistic view of the world.

[Rick]

Note to Keld Feldspar: What does that map have to do with the subject of this thread or discussion?

You apparently thought it was poignant in some way. Please elucidate.

And explain what the percentages refer to - total congressional composition (rep & Sen)? What?

Well Dave it was ment as a joke sorry if nobody got it, won't be the 1st won't be the last.

But as a matter of history see what bit of legislation the 80th Congress passed.

Many of those Red states are now Blue and soooo progressive oh how times change.

I thought it humorous anyhow...

[Crackpot]

Oldr

You ubnderestimate the valeue of the ability to organize to what employers offer. there was a time when as contract designers we made up in pay (at what I hear was about a 20% premium) what we lost in benfits but over time and a concerted effort on the part of automakers and the contract houses we not only lost whatever benefits we had but also were making about 15% less than the "direct" designers whos benefits are pegged to union benefits to keep them from organizing.

I'm not the biggest fan of unions but recognise that the viable threat of unionizing serves to keep wages and benefits both competitive and at levels that provide a decent standard of living.

BTW youget to negotiate your payroll taxes?

[Lord Jim]

You ubnderestimate the valeue of the ability to organize to what employers offer.

OK, that's it CP...

Not one more comment from you about anybody else's typos or grammar, ever....

Well Dave it was ment as a joke sorry if nobody got it, won't be the 1st won't be the last.

Keld, I'd bet just that about everybody, (except apparently for Dave, and probably you-know-who) got it...

[Andrew D]

You should consider the context, keld feldspar. In the post-World-War-II era of the 80th Congress, the South was overwhelmingly Democratic because of the legacy of Reconstruction. The Republican party had, quite rightly, imposed Reconstruction on the South -- and, lamentably, abandoned Reconstruction far too soon -- so Republicans were anathema in that backward part of the country.

And Democrats ran on positions diametrically opposed to those of today's Democratic party. For example, George Wallace won, by a landslide, the Alabama governorship as a Democrat in 1962. And in his famous inaugural speech, he said:

In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.

But since then, and for decades now, the Democratic party has become the champion of African-American rights. And of civil rights generally.

During the 80th Congress, the Republican party was the party of civil rights, and the Democratic party, at least in the regressive South, was the party of segregation. That changed when the Democratic party became the party of civil rights -- e.g., the Civil Rights Act, pushed to enaction by Democratic President Lyndon Johnson -- and the Republican party became the reactionary party. (After Strom Thurmond left the Democratic party to join the short-lived States' Rights party, he became a Republican: He found his natural home.)

The pro-civil-rights Republican States of the 80th Congress have become the pro-civil-rights Democratic States of recent Congresses. Throughout, the progressive States have, on the whole, remained progressive. And the ignorant, backward States of the South continue to be the ignorant, backward shame of our nation.

[Crackpot]

OK, that's it CP...

Not one more comment from you about anybody else's typos or grammar, ever....

mkae me,

[Rick]

Actually Andrew I am quite familiar with the context I have known many a yellow dog in my day.

I was making an aside at the simplistic partisan commentary, all in fun...

[oldr_n_wsr]

Oldr

You ubnderestimate the valeue of the ability to organize to what employers offer. there was a time when as contract designers we made up in pay (at what I hear was about a 20% premium) what we lost in benfits but over time and a concerted effort on the part of automakers and the contract houses we not only lost whatever benefits we had but also were making about 15% less than the "direct" designers whos benefits are pegged to union benefits to keep them from organizing.

I'm not the biggest fan of unions but recognise that the viable threat of unionizing serves to keep wages and benefits both competitive and at levels that provide a decent standard of living.

BTW youget to negotiate your payroll taxes?

The gov is the biggest and best racketeering organization out there, so no, I don't get to negotiate my payroll taxes. I do, however, get to find loopholes whereever they are to be found and pay the gov the minimum I can legally. When things become too oppressive, more people will do the same and the gov TAKES (THEIVES) less.

As far as unions keeping things both competetive and level, I have to disagree. When the choice comes where 50 people are being layed off or the rank and file take a deferred raise or have to chip in to their health insurance, I for one would go for keeping the people employed. But here where I live, they are willing to get rid of the "newbies". And their salaries are no where near where the people who vote them out are.
Low man on the totem pole is the first to get axed.

[Gob]

What would happen if things had to be named truthfully? "Fox reporter."

[Crackpot]

As far as unions keeping things both competetive and level, I have to disagree. When the choice comes where 50 people are being layed off or the rank and file take a deferred raise or have to chip in to their health insurance, I for one would go for keeping the people employed. But here where I live, they are willing to get rid of the "newbies". And their salaries are no where near where the people who vote them out are.
Low man on the totem pole is the first to get axed.

I can tell you this much if that is the case it was on the vote of the rank and file. Unions never go for less revenue by choice.

What method would you use for laying people off?

[Jarlaxle]

I'd hate to say this but Rube is going to have to increase his output to keep the balance.

Do we have a shortage of hot air?

[oldr_n_wsr]

What method would you use for laying people off?

Those that are least productive or are no longer in the business plan. I was one of those no longer in the business plan when I was layed off in 2008. They decided they were no longer going to design electronic hardware. I was an EE designing electronic hardware. I accepted my fate as part of the business decision. I didn't agree with thier path but was not an officer of the company. It is now almost delisted on Nasdaq. The future of the company will be the judge.

New people should not necessarily be the first to go.

[Crackpot]

You assume the people making the call have that knowledge. Or even that productivity can be accurately measured. You also assume "skilled" labor.

would you lay off someone 6 months frome getting retirement to keep someone just starting? (I've seen this happen) at the very least "time served" should be the basline upon what decisions are made. When I got laid off my first (career) job I was among the most productive and had above the 50% percentile in senority but that didn't matter. Management should be answerable for thier decisions in such matters. and Unions do demand such accountability.