What would happen if things had to be named truthfully?

[Rick]

Buy a man for what he's worth and sell him for what he thinks he's worth...somebody

[oldr_n_wsr]

You assume the people making the call have that knowledge. Or even that productivity can be accurately measured. You also assume "skilled" labor.

would you lay off someone 6 months frome getting retirement to keep someone just starting? (I've seen this happen) at the very least "time served" should be the basline upon what decisions are made. When I got laid off my first (career) job I was among the most productive and had above the 50% percentile in senority but that didn't matter. Management should be answerable for thier decisions in such matters. and Unions do demand such accountability.

Productivity can usually be measured. Even in a field like research and developement which is a money pit no matter how it is measured. I was in R&D.

Surley time served is a consideration, but usually it works against the person where no union is involved. That is, a younger person entering the field is cheaper than the 50-something person who has 6 weeks vacation and 30 years worth of salary raises. I was that person who go layed off 1 and a half weeks short of 25 years with the company. From what I have heard, a few other "long timers" have been layed off at that company in the past year. Shit happens. I have heard that unions, had they taken a less beneficial package could have saved some of their members from being shitcanned. They did not do that, of which if I were a member, would have voted to save those peoples jobs.

unions have a role, but lately it seems that they are overly screwing the company be it the gov (which seems to cave in to them no matter what) or a private company which ends up shutting down, to no ones benefit (see hostess).

[Crackpot]

[urley time served is a consideration, but usually it works against the person where no union is involved. That is, a younger person entering the field is cheaper than the 50-something person who has 6 weeks vacation and 30 years worth of salary raises. I was that person who go layed off 1 and a half weeks short of 25 years with the company. From what I have heard, a few other "long timers" have been layed off at that company in the past year. Shit happens.

Nice for a company to get out of paying retirement benefits eh?

I have heard that unions, had they taken a less beneficial package could have saved some of their members from being shitcanned. They did not do that, of which if I were a member, would have voted to save those peoples jobs.

At what cost? What is saving a few jobs it it means that the workforce as a whole will have to severely damage their standard of living?

unions have a role, but lately it seems that they are overly screwing the company be it the gov (which seems to cave in to them no matter what) or a private company which ends up shutting down, to no ones benefit (see hostess).

Got some examples for the prior? and as for the Latter Hostess? Have you read how that company was run? Hard to blame unions with systematic mismanagement combined with creating an extremely bad faith relationship with workers. (what else would you call giving record bonuses to execs after pleading poor to the unions and winning major concessions?


THat's what really amazes me by anti-union types. they really fail to hear about any concessions, givebacks and cuts that unions have steadily gave for almost 20 years now. the 70's were a long time go long gone are the days of striking on a whim.

[oldr_n_wsr]

Nice for a company to get out of paying retirement benefits eh?

Actually my pension was/is quite secure. I did take the lump some payment of $100k and have nearly $150k in that retirement account now.

Hard to blame unions with systematic mismanagement combined with creating an extremely bad faith relationship with workers.

And not having a job (in this economy) is better?

I was one day away from stocking shelves on the night shift at the local supermarket, but then this job came along. I have been out of work, it sucks and I feel for anyone who has been out of work, who wants to work and not sit home doing nothing.

Mayvbe it's just me, but I would vote to lower my standard of living a bit rather than have no standard of living.

[dgs49]

One can only hope (and try) to work for an employer that can make a rational assessment of the value of its employees. I just voluntarily left a stupid employer, and I'll never look back.

I have been working in my field since 1975, and make a good (not great) salary. My employers in all cases could have hired recent law school grads (Lord knows there are enough of them out looking for jobs) at about half the cost and given them the same duties that I fulfill. But because of my knowledge and experience I can do twice as much work and make far fewer errors in the process. And my employers know that when they have an unusual or even unique situation I have either been through exactly the same thing before, or have been through several similar things, and can figure out ways to get through it with minimal pain.

I have lost my job four times, none of which was my fault, and in all four cases I was replaced (eventually) by someone cheaper, and my employer regretted it. Every one of them came back to me later for help.

If you find yourself 50 years old and capable of being replaced by someone half your age, then you are doing something wrong. Employers do stupid shit every day, but you should always be able to look yourself in the mirror and say truthfully that you are worth every penny you get.

Unions are for the benefit of the worst employees - the ones who are NOT worth what they are making. The good employees are simply held back by the payscales and work rules and the attitude of the slugs. It is not for nothing that the greatest inroads of collective bargaining in the past 30 years have been in the public sector, where the employer cannot go out of business. Most industries where unions are strong have been decimated by bankruptcies, mergers, consolidation, and worker populations have shrunk due to forced automation (as in coal mining).

As I write this we are looking at Port-mageddon, as our dock workers threaten a nationwide strike to protect their inflated compensation and counter-productive work rules. This will fuck the entire economy, but who cares? Really, who cares?

[Joe Guy]

Unions are for the benefit of the worst employees - the ones who are NOT worth what they are making. The good employees are simply held back by the payscales and work rules and the attitude of the slugs.

That has not been my experience. Unions are there to ensure that employees are treated fairly & equally. Employees that are not doing the job will lose their jobs if management documents their poor performance and give proper notice to them that improvement is needed.

In my experience, bad employees that seem to be protected by the Union, continue to keep their jobs because their superiors don't or don't seem to know the proper steps in taking a disciplinary action.

In a Union shop, if an employee is not performing to a standard set by management and continues to stay at that position, it is management's fault for not taking action and/or taking action and not doing it properly.

Unions aren't there to protect bad performance. People who misunderstand the Union's purpose are quick to blame them for anything bad that happens. There are also many Union members who criticize their own Union by saying, "What have you done for me?"

They, like many others, are unclear on the concept.