Queen James Bible

[Gob]

Daft idea.

[GrossDad]

. . . and nowhere to be found in MY Bible.

[dales]

Try READING it.

[GrossDad]

Try READING it.

Let me put it this way, dales: If my Bible were a "red-letter" edition, in which all of the words purported to have been said by Jesus were printed in red, my Bible would have no red. My Bible is what Christians commonly refer to as the "Old Testament".

[Crackpot]

what of sheol?

[Rick]

He will say it's translated grave...

However if this is the case where did Elisha go?

[Lord Jim]

The facts are these.

The bible is not the word of god, no "god" would produce such a shoddy piece of work, it is the work of humans, for the controlling of other people.

God, even as you describe it, make excuses for, reinterpret, word juggle, omit, deny acts and intents of etc, is still just too human to even consider as deity.

If there was such a thing as god, and he had created a hell, even as you give several interpretations of hell, he would not be worth worship.

For any deity to create such useless creatures as humans, the give them a crap book of rules, let them fight and squabble over it for centuries, and then say to an individual, "nope you didn't do what I wanted, you 're going to hell," oh come on, it's too farcical to even consider.

The whole Jesus story? Give me a break here? What god would pull such a charade to forgive us?

Hmmmm....

I have to say that everything in that post that follows the words, "The facts are these", looks a lot more like "opinions" to me than "facts".....

Do you have a graph or a pie chart?

[Gob]

You calling me rubato? That's fighting talk!!!

[Crackpot]

If the shoe fits......

[Gob]

Throw it at him?

[Lord Jim]

Well, I've learned one thing from this discussion...

I know exactly how Strop would have organized things if he were God......

[Sean]

Maybe the Atheists should use the believer's tactic in arguments: "Because God/Jesus didn't say so!"

As for me, I think that any omnipotent deity worthy of the name would surely have sorted out this omniscience Vs free will thing for starters... and I do wonder that if the Holy Spirit inspired men to write the Bible, did it also inspire their editing jobs?

[GrossDad]

what of sheol?

MyJewishLearning.com: Heaven and Hell in Jewish Tradition

Excerpts:

The subject of death is treated inconsistently in the Bible, though most often it suggests that physical death is the end of life. This is the case with such central figures as Abraham, Moses, and Miriam.

There are, however, several biblical references to a place called Sheol (cf. Numbers 30, 33). It is described as a region "dark and deep," "the Pit," and "the Land of Forgetfulness," where human beings descend after death. The suggestion is that in the netherworld of Sheol, the deceased, although cut off from God and humankind, live on in some shadowy state of existence.

While this vision of Sheol is rather bleak (setting precedents for later Jewish and Christian ideas of an underground hell) there is generally no concept of judgment or reward and punishment attached to it. In fact, the more pessimistic books of the Bible, such as Ecclesiastes and Job, insist that all of the dead go down to Sheol, whether good or evil, rich or poor, slave or free man (Job 3:11-19).

. . . [More discussion of the development of Jewish thought in the post-Biblical era]

Gehinnom: A Jewish Hell

Only truly righteous souls ascend directly to Gan Eden, say the sages. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom.

The name is taken from a valley (Gei Hinnom) just south of Jerusalem, once used for child sacrifice by the pagan nations of Canaan (II Kings 23:10). Some view Gehinnom as a place of torture and punishment, fire and brimstone. Others imagine it less harshly, as a place where one reviews the actions of his/her life and repents for past misdeeds.

The soul's sentence in Gehinnom is usually limited to a twelve-month period of purgation before it takes its place in Olam Ha-Ba (Mishnah Eduyot 2:9, Shabbat 33a). This twelve-month limit is reflected in the yearlong mourning cycle and the recitation of the Kaddish (the memorial prayer for the dead).

Only the utterly wicked do not ascend to Gan Eden at the end of this year. Sources differ on what happens to these souls at the end of their initial time of purgation. Some say that the wicked are utterly destroyed and cease to exist, while others believe in eternal damnation (Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Law of Repentance, 3:5-6).

[dgs49]

The jews at the time of Christ clearly believed in reincarnation. There was open speculation that Jesus was one or another of the prophets, reincarnated.

For better or for worse, one of the most fundamental differences between jews and Christians is that jews don't (formally) believe in the "pie in the sky," or, as a general proposition, that evil conduct will be punished in the afterlife. One could well argue that most people who call themselves "Christians" do not behave as though they held these two beliefs, but they say they do.

Of course, Fundies believe that "we are saved by faith alone." But they do believe that sin is punished after death.

[Lord Jim]

Very interesting article, GD....

It seems to me that these concepts:

The soul's sentence in Gehinnom is usually limited to a twelve-month period of purgation before it takes its place in Olam Ha-Ba (Mishnah Eduyot 2:9, Shabbat 33a). This twelve-month limit is reflected in the yearlong mourning cycle and the recitation of the Kaddish (the memorial prayer for the dead).

Only the utterly wicked do not ascend to Gan Eden at the end of this year. Sources differ on what happens to these souls at the end of their initial time of purgation. Some say that the wicked are utterly destroyed and cease to exist, while others believe in eternal damnation (Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Law of Repentance, 3:5-6).

are not all that different from the range of Christian views about Hell, (and also the Catholic concept of purgatory.)

[MajGenl.Meade]

The facts are these. The bible is not the word of god, no "god" would produce such a shoddy piece of work, it is the work of humans, for the controlling of other people.

Well I am somewhat disappointed. Not a fact within hailing distance! Leaving all the other editorials aside, just looking at the first one is rather sad for I know you are more intelligent than that (you told me so ).

The bible is not the word of god (because?) no "god" would produce such a shoddy piece of work. First you should produce some evidence showing why and in what way the Bible is "shoddy". Of course, it would have to be clear and unambiguous evidence proving shoddiness and not just your failure to understand, agree with or be willing to learn how to understand something.

The second (what should have been a new) sentence would have to await your demonstration of the truthfulness of the first bald assertion.

And don't worry - it's not PIA but PIH

Meade

[rubato]

Per GrossDad the Hebrew version of the OT is very substantially different from the English translations.


Apparently users of var. European translations for exegesis are not to be trusted. Hire a Rabbi!



yrs,
rubato

[GrossDad]

Very interesting article, GD....

It seems to me that these concepts:

The soul's sentence in Gehinnom is usually limited to a twelve-month period of purgation before it takes its place in Olam Ha-Ba (Mishnah Eduyot 2:9, Shabbat 33a). This twelve-month limit is reflected in the yearlong mourning cycle and the recitation of the Kaddish (the memorial prayer for the dead).

Only the utterly wicked do not ascend to Gan Eden at the end of this year. Sources differ on what happens to these souls at the end of their initial time of purgation. Some say that the wicked are utterly destroyed and cease to exist, while others believe in eternal damnation (Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Law of Repentance, 3:5-6).

are not all that different from the range of Christian views about Hell, (and also the Catholic concept of purgatory.)

The difference is that, in the case of Judaism, the precise nature of the afterlife is not to be found in the Bible, and beliefs such as the ones described are pretty much rank speculation by one or another scholar or groups of scholars. There is no official dogma regarding what happens to us after death; Jewish religious education does not dwell on the subject, and I have never, in my entire life, gone to synagogue and heard a sermon about the terror of going to Hell.

[GrossDad]

Per GrossDad the Hebrew version of the OT is very substantially different from the English translations.


Apparently users of var. European translations for exegesis are not to be trusted. Hire a Rabbi!



yrs,
rubato

I heartily recommend Richard Elliott Friedman's own translation, with commentary, of the Torah (Pentateuch). I also have, because it includes the complete Tanakh, the Jewish Study Bible produced by The Jewish Publication Society.

[GrossDad]

Personally, I think all of the discussion regarding the translation of the word, "to know", in the story of Lot, is really beside the point. I think it's obvious that, in both places, the word is used to indicate sexual intercourse--but it is used with different connotations. In the case of his daughters not having "known" a man, Lot is clearing stating no more than that they are virgins; when the crowd outside his house declares that they want to "know" his visitors; they are indicating their intent to sexually violate those visitors. I think the QJV translation is true to the sense in which the word was used.